--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "david_russell_watson" <liberty@...> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> >
> > BTW, I mentioned earlier that the fact that the Germanic
> > lands, Croatia, and Tanais show high concentrations of
> > male haplogroup I argued for a common origin (see maps in
> > ile section); it turns out that the Ossetians are mainly
> > male haplogroup G
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G_%28Y-DNA%29
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G_%28Y-DNA%29#Caucasus
> > http://www.members.cox.net/morebanks/MoreG2.html
> > which however is also a male Caucasus marker.
> > If I want to save a theory that Yazygi or Alans colonized
> > large parts of Europe 'under cover' so to speak, I'd have
> > to claim that the Alans/Ossetians received their high G
> > percentage in the Caucasus. But that seems awkward (althouh
> > since they have the highest G percentage of all groups there,
> > plus that if I claim that the Alans were once haplogroup R
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_%28Y-DNA%29 as
> > the other Iranian steppe groups I would have no theory of
> > cohesion with anyone in particular in Europe.
> >
> > So I think I'll modify my conjecture to this: The Yazygi etc
> > were mainly R with some G from early intermarriage (Vanir etc),
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vani
http://www.drummingnet.com/alekseev/ChapterVIII.html
'The Kingdom of Vani is located in the Caucasus in Georgia and exists from the seventh/sixth century BC to the first century AD. Greek inscriptions are carved on tombstones and the architecture is similar to that of Greece. Both iron and bronze metals are used, but bronze is considered more valuable.'
Alekseev must mean Colchis. Cf.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Georgia_%28country%29
> > but picked up someone else with haplogroup I in Tanais, which
> > became dominant in their later travels.
>
On the genetic composition of the Georgians cf. ibd.
'In 1118-1119, having considerable amounts of free, unsettled land as a result of the withdrawal of Turkish nomads, and desperately needing qualified manpower for the army, King David invited some 40,000 Kipchak warriors from North Caucasus to settle in Georgia with their families. In 1120 the ruler of Alania recognized himself as King David's vassal and afterwards sent thousands of Alans (allegedly modern day Ossetians) to cross the main Caucasus range into Georgia, where they settled in Kartli. The Georgian Royal army also welcomed mercenaries from Germany, Italy, and Scandinavia (all those westerners were defined in Georgia as "the Franks") as well as from Kievan Rus.'
The Alans settling in Georgia are reputedly today's South Ossetians
With that admixture from elsewhere, one could argue that haplotype G originated in the Caucasus and became dominant in the Caucasian part of the Alan sphere; note
Les Alains
pp. 28-31
'Sur le versant sud des montagnes, les liens des Alains avec la Transcaucasie ne se limitent pas aux incursions précitées. L'alliance avec les Ibères de Géorgie est étroite. Les élites s'unissent par mariage; les nobles ibères portent souvent des noms sarmato-alains (épitaphes de Mtskhéta aux noms de Khséfarnug, Asparuk, etc.).
En Azerbaïdjan, le complexe à catacombes de Mingétchaour, avec de nombreux crânes artificiellement déformés, présente des traits alains mêlés à d'autres d'origine locale. Des sources des IVe-Ve siècles situent en Azerbaïdjan septentrional des «Maskoutes» qu'on a voulu identifier à des «Massagètes». Sur la côte de la Caspienne, près de Lenkoran et de l'actuelle frontière irano-azerbaïdjanaise, une rivière porte le nom d'Alaniatchaï. Et plus loin encore au sud, les tombes à catacombes de Daïlaman, où' l'on a trouvé des miroirs métalliques, peuvent rappeler l'avance de groupes d'Alains jusqu'en Iran septentrional.
Tout le Caucase constitue donc un champ d'action pour les Alains, dont il sera plus tard l'ultime forteresse. C'est à bon droit que la fameuse Table de Peutinger (faite d'après un original du IVe siècle) situe le peuple alain au nord de la chaîne caucasienne, et que les géographes antiques, de Ptolémée (IIe siècle) à Stéphane de Byzance (Ve siècle) parlent des «Monts Alains».'
Cf that with Snorri's account of the union between Asir (ie. the As people) and Vanir (ie. those from Vani). Seems also, from the possessions mentioned, on both sides of the Black Sea, that the same Mithridates was conflated into Snorri's (or was it Saxo's)? story of Odin.
> You should join the haplogroup-G list of which I am a member,
> at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Y-DNA_Haplogroup_G_Group .
>
> Many of its members think like you, and I think would warmly
> receive your ideas.
I can't access the group without being a member, it seems, not even to apply for membership.
BTW
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/29589
and so did Mithridates VI Eupator with his sister Laodike
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithridates_VI_of_Pontus
Given that the kingdom of Vani, Colchis, spoke Mingrelian, the kingdom of Pontus,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontus
and it's kings, most likely spoke Laz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laz_language
which is the other Zan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zan_language
language.
Torsten