Fw: Re: [tied] Re: Frankish origins

From: Torsten
Message: 65266
Date: 2009-10-19

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "gknysh" <gknysh@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@> wrote:
> > > >(TP) This is what Lucan has Caesar say on his arrival in Rome
> > > > after having crossed the Rubicon in 49 BCE.
> > > > ''tene, deum sedes, non ullo Marte coacti
> > > > deseruere uiri? pro qua pugnabitur urbe?
> > > > di melius, quod non Latias Eous in oras
> > > > nunc furor incubuit nec iuncto Sarmata uelox
> > > > Pannonio Dacisque Getes admixtus: habenti
> > > > tam pauidum tibi, Roma, ducem fortuna pepercit,
> > > > quod bellum ciuile fuit.'
> > > > Pharsalia, Book III
> > > > http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/lucan/lucan3.shtml
> > > > which Riley
> > > > http://tinyurl.com/ls8exo
> > > > translates as
> > > > " And have there been men, forced by no warfare, to
> > > > desert thee, the abode of the Gods! For what city will they
> > > > fight?
> > > > The Gods have proved more favouring in that it is
> > > > no Eastern fury that now presses upon the Latian shores,
> > > > nor yet the swift Sarmatian in common with the Pannonian,
> > > > and the Getans mingled with the Dacians. Fortune, Borne,
> > > > has spared thee, having a chief so cowardly [Pompey], in that
> > > > the warfare was a civil one."
> > > >
> > > > GK: Does nothing for your thesis. Merely "supports"
> > > > Harmatta's view that the Sarmatians were across from Pannonia
> > > > (he thinks), although frankly, it doesn't even do that.
> > >
> > > ****GK: Lucan may simply have projected the situation of
> > > 59/60 CE (when Sarmatians were indeed located just across
> > > Pannonia on the Danube) back to 49 BCE.
> >
> > True, Vannius' war would have given the spectacle of Germani
> > joined in common operations with Pannonian Sarmatians.
>
> Tacitus, Annals,
>
> 12,29
> http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/tac/a12020.htm
>
> 'ipsi manus propria pedites, eques a Sarmatis Iazugibus erat, impar
> multitudini hostium, eoque castellis sese defensare bellumque
> ducere statuerat.'
>
> "Vannius's own native force was infantry, and his cavalry was from
> the Iazyges of Sarmatia; an army which was no match for his
> numerous enemy. Consequently, he determined to maintain himself in
> fortified positions, and protract the war."
>
>
> 12,30
> http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/tac/a12030.htm
>
> 'Igitur degressus castellis Vannius funditur proelio, quamquam
> rebus adversis laudatus quod et pugnam manu capessiit et corpore
> adverso vulnera excepit. Ceterum ad classem in Danuvio opperientem
> perfugit; secuti mox clientes et acceptis agris in Pannonia locati
> sunt.'
>
> "So Vannius came down out of his fortresses, and though he was
> defeated in battle, notwithstanding his reverse, he won some credit
> by having fought with his own hand, and received wounds on his
> breast. He then fled to the fleet which was awaiting him on the
> Danube, and was soon followed by his adherents, who received grants
> of land and were settled in Pannonia."
>
> In other words, with no information to the contrary, we must assume
> that the Romans settled part of Vannius' Yazygian allies in
> Pannonia. That would explain why Pannonia became so important to
> Rome in the era of the soldier emperors
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65077
> http://bib.irb.hr/datoteka/167165.FIllyrica_antiqua-h-gracanin.pdf
> when the Roman army was being Sarmatized in weaponry.

Shchukin
Rome and the Barbarians in Central and Eastern Europe
p. 486
'Driven by the threat of Sarmatian invasions, the bearers of the Zarubintsy culture fled not only to the Bryansk forests, but also to the west, probably to take cover behind the shields of the Przeworsk-Celtic-Dacian-Zvenigorod group of the upper Dniester valley (Bastarnae of the Pliny). The descendants of the ancient Bastarnae fled to their relatives, who were by that time Przeworised, ie. Germanised.

The same wave of Sarmatian migration (caused by the Siraco-Aorsian conflict of 49 AD) which destroyed the Zarubintsy culture, forced the Iazyges of the middle Dniester valley to migrate across the Carpathians to the Hungarian Plain. Together with Vannius they fought against the Lugii and Hermunduri. Thus, a kind of complete circle was made.'

Or did Sarmatians make the trip directly from the ruins of the Zarubintsy culture to the Hungarian Plain? If so, it would be interesting to know the name of their leader. Pharzoios ruled ca 45 - ca 70 CE.


Torsten