From: Torsten
Message: 65248
Date: 2009-10-15
>Cost me about $150. Good investment.
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> >
> > > > That's where my OCR'ed paper Pokorny has them too.
> > >
> > > Pardon my ignorance, but I don't know what 'OCR'ed' means --?
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_character_recognition
> > I use the FineReader OCR on my library loans
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABBYY
> > which means I got them stored and can search terms in them. Gives
> > me an edge in discussions ;-)
>
> I don't have that.
> I googled Pokorny and downloaded (extracted) a file namedJohn Vertical, you mean? And more like what he said about *kämme "palm".
> "the_whole_dang_file" which is Pokorny partially translated, but I
> can't be sure it really is the _whole_ file, nor how old it is or
> whether there are any updates or anything.
>
> > > > > > And the answer to Andrew's question about the "ten" word:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Russian (and other Slavic languages, AFAIK) has
> > > > > > dvenadtsat', trinadtsat' etc lit.
> > > > > > "two on ten", "three on ten" etc meaning
> > > > > > "twelve", "thirteen" etc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Suppose PIE had 'dwó do komt', 'trí do komt' vel sim.
> > > > > > (cf. the Lat. -gint-, Gk. -kont- for decades), then by
> > > > > > false division *dé-komt- "ten". Voilà!
> > > > > >
> > > > > Great, but did *komt- mean "bundle of fingers" or "bundle
> > > > > of hands" or something else?
> > > >
> > > > More like "handful".
> > > >
> > > > > Why not just "hand", and then go along with Pokorny in
> > > > > making *dek^mt- a reduced form of *dwe/dwo k^mt (or
> > > > > *k^omt)?
> > > >
> > > > I like my proposal better. The *kom-t- thing means "ten" in
> > > > Volga-Finnic and "hundred" and "decade" in IE. Nowhere does
> > > > it mean "five".
> >
> > I take that back.
>
> Because of what Doug Kilday said about <kümmen>?
> You're right that if *dek^mt really meant 'two hands' originallyBut I don't; I'm proposing *de-kom- is from false division of the teen numbers. And if (part of) the *ka/unt- thing is actually composite *ka/um-t- (*kaN-t-?) then I don't need any -t-'s words for five or ten.
> and was used for the derived concept 'ten', then one should find a
> *k^mt-/k^omt-/k^emt- meaning 'five' somewhere.
> You and Doug are more qualified than I to determine whetherMe? I'm just another goddam amateur.
> <kümmen> fits that bill.
> If only we could uncover an ancient book somewhere called "TheIf we could find books like that I'd probably be all over other Yahoo groups.
> Story of Ten and Five and the Other Numbers".
> > > Obviously it must mean "group" (of something) in in a fieldThat's very noble of you. ;-)
> > > where decadic numbers were preferred. And that was in the field
> > > of military venture / hunting.
> > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65159
> > >
> > > Fine, I understand and respect your proposal,
> > > but I like the idea of 'ten' coming from simple alwaysBeen there, done that.
> > > available objects that virtually always have ten appendages,
> > > the hands.
> >
> > And I prefer to have *kom-t- mean "collection" vel sim., since it
> > seems to means collections of different sizes.
>
> In this meaning, perhaps *kom-t- is related to *k(^)om "with"?
> ("together with" > "together" > "collection").
> Not that it adds any support to the idea of it being related toYou can always access all the postings at
> 'hand', though I'm sure one could still connect the idea of "with"
> to the idea of "hand" (see my previous posting).
> > > If the origin of 'ten' is to remain moot, I will remain partial
> > > to the idea of it being related to Gmc 'hand'.
> >
> > I won't object to Gmc "hand" being from some loaned *kom-t-ú-.
>
> I have experienced problems with my e-mail and have lost several
> pages of e-mails, including the one in which *kom-t-ú- was
> discussed (I believe it was discussed mainly by Doug Kilday?).
> > > And as far as the origin of 'hand', I suspect there is noPIE *pedom "plain" (vel sim.)
> > > further etymology than the meaning 'hand' --
> >
> > > isn't there no further etymology than the meaning 'foot' for
> > > *pe(:)d-/po(:)d- or
> >
> > Wrong
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/39804
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/59452
> > FWIW
>
> a) the semantics between 'foot' and the various other concepts like
> 'grassy meadow' are very far removed;
> b) I don't place much credence in the idea of AustralasianAustronesian, in this case. They were sea-borne, they had a trade network in the Indian Ocean (witness the language of Madagascar); add a Semitic trade network in the Mediterranean and Black Sea, then we have a connection.
> languages either having a common origin with IE or contributing
> loans for basic words like 'foot'.
> > > > > Maybe Gmc 'hand' was originally a consonant stem, and thenNorth.
> > > > > became an u-stem because of the accusative endings -um and
> > > > >-uns, like Gothic <fo:tus>?
> > > >
> > > > Note the section names
> > > > 'Die maskulinen u-Stämme mit grammatischem Wechsel'
> > > > and
> > > > 'U-stämmige Adjektiva mit grammatischem Wechsel'
> > > > in
> > > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62159
> > > > That list contains several I know to be loans (eg. plough)
> > > > and I suspect they all are, which would mean that
> > > > Proto-Proto-Germanic had no mobile-accent nouns (but did have
> > > > mobile-accent verbs). One might therefore suspect the -ú- to
> > > > be not IE, and further an adjective-forming suffix in the
> > > > donor language, so that *hanðu- (< **kantú-) was originally
> > > > an adjective to **kant-.
> > > >
> > > The other u-stem nouns and adjectives, I've seen IE etymologies
> > > for most of them, I'm pretty sure (at least for *ferþ/ðu/furðu,
> > > *grunþu/ðu, *xaþu/xaðu, *xunxru/xunGru, *laGu, *þursu/zu,
> > > *þranxu/Gu). But always remember my opinions are mostly
> > > comparatively uninformed.
> >
> > Aren't they areally restricted? And why don't they ablaut with
> > the stress, when Gmc verbs do?
>
> Well, if I'm not mistaken,
> *ferþu- etc. is found in Germanic, Celtic, Italic,
> and its base *per- is found in these and in Indo-Iranian and Greek;It's bigger than that. It's relatives are found in other language families.
> *þursu- etc. is found in Germanic, Italic, and Indo-Iranian;Cf Latin lacus. Latin-Germanic correspondence /a/ - /a/ makes that one suspicious.
> *xaþu- etc. is found in Germanic and Indo-Iranian and I believe
> Celtic; and
> *laGu- is found in Germanic, Italic, Greek, Celtic, and
> Balto-Slavic.
> Is that really areally restricted?Well, some are.
> I don't understand why you're asking why they don't ablaut with theNo, because that would mean assuming that people at some time would have generalized one ablaut variant without at the same time generalizing stress. Why would they do that in nouns alone?
> stress like Gmc verbs do. Is it too much to believe that all nouns
> in Gmc could have generalized one or the other of the various
> accented forms? To me that seems a pretty obvious possibility
> which easily takes away any question or puzzlement about the lack
> of ablaut in these nouns.
> Verbs retained ablaut because they used it to indicate tenseWell, that's possible.
> (whereas nouns only needed inflectional endings to indicate case
> and number, so ablaut was superfluous).
> As you can see, I'm always conservative in my opinions on IEThat's me alright. My sergeants in the army cried themselves to sleep.
> languages, while it seems you're always seeking new innovative and
> dogma-overturning explanations for the facts. At least this kind
> of opposition keeps this list going.