From: Torsten
Message: 65246
Date: 2009-10-15
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_character_recognition
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "andythewiros" <anjarrette@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > > ><snip>
> > > > Bundle (sort of).
> > >
> > > So was the idea of 'ten' 'a bundle of fingers', or was a 'hand'
> > > 'a bundle of fingers', or 'the bundled fingers (fist)', or
> > > something else?
> >
> > See below.
> >
> > > >
> > > > And the really interesting bundles:
> > > > *k^mtóm and de-k^mto- (too large in Pokorny for a quote).
> > >
> > > Where are these in Pokorny? I looked for *k^em- and *k^m(t)- but
> > > could not find them. Under *de-k^mto- I only found the
> > > following
> > > note:
> >
> > That's where my OCR'ed paper Pokorny has them too.
>
> Pardon my ignorance, but I don't know what 'OCR'ed' means --?
> > > > And the answer to Andrew's question about the "ten" word:I take that back.
> > > >
> > > > Russian (and other Slavic languages, AFAIK) has
> > > > dvenadtsat', trinadtsat' etc lit.
> > > > "two on ten", "three on ten" etc meaning
> > > > "twelve", "thirteen" etc.
> > > >
> > > > Suppose PIE had 'dwó do komt', 'trí do komt' vel sim. (cf. the
> > > > Lat. -gint-, Gk. -kont- for decades), then by false division
> > > >*dé-komt- "ten". Voilà!
> > > >
> > > Great, but did *komt- mean "bundle of fingers" or "bundle of
> > > hands" or something else?
> >
> > More like "handful".
> >
> > > Why not just "hand", and then go along with Pokorny in making
> > > *dek^mt- a reduced form of *dwe/dwo k^mt (or *k^omt)?
> >
> > I like my proposal better. The *kom-t- thing means "ten" in
> > Volga-Finnic and "hundred" and "decade" in IE. Nowhere does it
> > mean "five".
> Obviously it must mean "group" (of something) in in a field whereAnd I prefer to have *kom-t- mean "collection" vel sim., since it seems to means collections of different sizes.
> decadic numbers were preferred. And that was in the field of
> military venture / hunting.
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65159
>
> Fine, I understand and respect your proposal, but I like the idea
> of 'ten' coming from simple always available objects that virtually
> always have ten appendages, the hands.
> If the origin of 'ten' is to remain moot, I will remain partial toI won't object to Gmc "hand" being from some loaned *kom-t-ú-.
> the idea of it being related to Gmc 'hand'.
> And as far as the origin of 'hand', I suspect there is no furtherWrong
> etymology than the meaning 'hand' --
> isn't there no further etymology than the meaning 'foot' for
> *pe(:)d-/po(:)d- or
> the meaning 'eye' for *okW- or the meaning 'ear' for *aus-?Possibly.
> > > Maybe Gmc 'hand' was originally a consonant stem, and thenSlang. Most languages have colloquial terms for parts of the body. And Russian (and some other Slavic languages) don't even have separate terms for "arm"/"hand" or "leg"/"foot".
> > > became an u-stem because of the accusative endings -um and
> > >-uns, like Gothic <fo:tus>?
> >
> > Note the section names
> > 'Die maskulinen u-Stämme mit grammatischem Wechsel'
> > and
> > 'U-stämmige Adjektiva mit grammatischem Wechsel'
> > in
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62159
> > That list contains several I know to be loans (eg. plough) and I
> > suspect they all are, which would mean that Proto-Proto-Germanic
> > had no mobile-accent nouns (but did have mobile-accent verbs).
> > One might therefore suspect the -ú- to be not IE, and further an
> > adjective-forming suffix in the donor language, so that *hanðu-
> > (< **kantú-) was originally an adjective to **kant-.
> >
> >
> I'm really surprised that so basic a notion as 'hand' would have to
> be borrowed from elsewhere, like FU.
> The other u-stem nouns and adjectives, I've seen IE etymologies forAren't they areally restricted? And why don't they ablaut with the stress, when Gmc verbs do?
> most of them, I'm pretty sure (at least for *ferþ/ðu/furðu,
> *grunþu/ðu, *xaþu/xaðu, *xunxru/xunGru, *laGu, *þursu/zu,
> *þranxu/Gu). But always remember my opinions are mostly
> comparatively uninformed.