From: andythewiros
Message: 65221
Date: 2009-10-13
>Your full explanation is excellent and makes me see your point very clearly, and I assent to it.
>
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "andythewiros" <anjarrette@> wrote:
> >
> > In case no one else has done so, I just wanted to comment that your idea of Gmc *hunDa- being related to Gothic <frahinþan> makes a lot of sense and is quite plausible. The connection with words meaning 'point, sting, goad, spur, pole, spear, shaft,to prick, to goad, to sting, to incite', although plausible in light of the effect of the Skt prefix pra-, I find less likely because there is little of the Gmc sense of 'capture, imprison' or 'obtain, reach'. However the Gmc meanings can easily be related to the 'hand' as that which catches or that which obtains. The *k^n.tó can then be what facilitates catching game, as opposed to chasing it. Just my two cents' worth. I think your theory may require more substantiation of the equation of Skt. pra- with Gmc fra-.
> >
> =====
>
> I found some examples in which Gothic <fra->, with verbs of motion, indicates or implies the end of the motion, or the permanence of the result.
>
> <qiman> 'to come'; <fra-qiman> 'to come to the end of, use up, consume'. In 2 Corinthians 12:1 <qima> renders Greek <eleúsomai> 'I will come'; in 12:15 <fraqima> renders <dapané:so:> 'I will consume', and <fraqimada> renders <ekdapane:thé:somai> 'I will be completely consumed'. In Luke 8:41 <qam> renders <êlthen> 'he came'; in 8:43 <fraqam> renders the verb expressed in Greek by the participle <prosanaló:sa:sa> 'having used up (besides)'.
>
> <niman> 'to take, pick up, remove'; <fra-niman> 'to take to oneself, take possession of, acquire'. In Luke 17:31 <niman> renders <ârai> 'to pick up' (household objects); in 19:12 <franiman> renders <labeîn heautôi> 'to take for himself, take possession of' (a kingdom).
>
> <wairpan> 'to cast (away)'; <fra-wairpan> 'to throw (abroad), scatter'. In Matthew 5:29&30 <wairp> renders <bále> 'cast!' (your scandalizing eye and hand away from you); in 9:36 <frawaurpanai> renders <êsan eri:mménoi> 'they had been scattered' (the crowds, into various habitations).
>
> <bi-rinnan> 'to run around, surround, encircle'; <fra-rinnan> 'to run into, encounter'. In John 10:24 <birunnun> renders <ekúklo:san> 'they encircled'; in Luke 10:30 <frarann> renders <periépesen> 'he fell among' (bandits; had the Good Samaritan not shown up, his run would have ended permanently).
>
> <itan> 'to eat' (moving food into one's belly); <fra-itan> 'to eat up, devour, consume completely'. In Luke 17:27&28 <etun> renders <é:sthion> 'they were eating'; in 15:30 <fret> renders the verb expressed by <kataphagó:n> 'having devoured'.
>
> Now in 2 Cor. 10:5 <frahinþandans> renders the nom. pl. pres. act. part. <aikhmalo:tízontes> 'capturing, making prisoner' (literally at spear-point, from <aikhmé:> 'spear-point, spear'). The Greek phrase is peculiar, even for Paul: <aikhmalo:tízontes pân nóe:ma eis tè:n hupakoè:n toû Khristoû> 'capturing every thought into the obedience of Christ'. The imagery is of mental warriors driving thoughts at spear-point into confinement. Possibly Ulfilas chose <fra-hinþan> to render <aikhmalo:tízein> because some noun derived from *k^ent-, such as *hinþra- or *hinþan-, was current in his Gothic as 'spear-point' or 'spear'. Again in Romans 7:23 we find <frahinþando> for the acc. sg. <aikhmalo:tízonta>, and in Luke 4:19 the dat. pl. <aikhmaló:tois> 'captives of the spear, prisoners of war' is rendered by the dat. pl. <frahunþanaim> of the pret. pass. part. of <frahinþan>, not as though the original were *e:ikhmalo:tisménois, but because <aikhmálo:tos> is effectively the verbal adjective of <aikhmêi halônai> 'to be captured at spear-point'.
>
> If my view on *hunDa- is to be maintained, it seems necessary to postulate 'incite into motion' vel sim. as the original sense of *k^ent-. To our knowledge, the domestication of dogs for use in hunting preceded the breeding of domestic cattle. Then *k^n.tó- 'facilitator of incitation (of game), hunting dog, hound' could belong to this earlier stage, and might well be the earliest Indo-European word for 'domestic dog', preserved in Germanic as *hunDa-, but replaced elsewhere by a derivative of *pék^u- 'livestock'. Stockbreeders required dogs of a different temperament, who could keep herds together without inciting them into a stampede. For inciting individual animals to move, pointed goads were necessary. Such derivatives of *k^ent- as Greek <kéntron> and <kontós>, and Latvian <si:ts>, could originally have referred to goads (and the shafts upon which they were mounted) for prodding cattle, and belong to this later stage. These derivatives would have acted back on the sense of the primary verb, giving the specialization 'incite by pricking, prick, goad'. In Gothic I suspect that the simplex <-hinþan> in a military context meant something like 'to incite with a spear', either by actual poking or by threatening to do so, as armed men herding prisoners. As in the other examples, <frahinþan> would then indicate the motion going to completion, 'to incite into confinement, take captive at spear-point'. And of course the etymological connection with <hunds> would no longer be felt by Gothic-speakers, having been forgotten long ago.
>I will try to find that thread, unless you can point me to it here. The explanation above makes it clear that <frahinþan> is basically associated with 'spear/goad' like the Greek word it translates, so I guess I will have to retract my hypothesis about its relation to 'hand'.
> As for 'hand', until something better comes along, I will stick with a derivative of *ken-dH- 'to make compressed, squeeze, pinch' vel sim. as outlined in another thread. Hands may indeed catch (and incite) but the MAIN thing they do is grasp, grip, squeeze, etc.
>
> DGK
>