Re: Sos-

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > I have a copy of that paper, which I should probably revisit. I
> > agree the Old PIE thematic vowel was */a/, and I believe this was
> > preserved as */a/ in later PIE in heavy syllables in non-verbal
> > forms. For example Lat. <falx> 'sickle', Sicel <zagkle:>,
> > Liguro-Latin <daculum>, Gallo-Rom. dial. <dal>, <daille>, etc. (by
> > dissimilation from *dalklom vel sim.) have what I regard as
> > original /a/ in the noun *dHalgH-s, *dHalgH-os, etc. corresponding
> > to the verbal root *dHelgH-.

Very poor example on my part since it depends on poorly attested Sicel and Ligurian. A better one is *da'k^ru-/*dak^ro'- 'tear'.

> I hadn't thought of that, but it makes a lot of sense.
> This is what I thought happened to cause ablauting paradigms:
>
> PPPIE *a: > PPIE -é:-/´-o:-/-Ø-´ > PIE -é-/´-o(:)-/-Ø-´
> PPPIE *i: > PPIE -éI-/´-i:-/-i-´ > PIE -éI-/´-oI-/-i-´
> PPPIE *u: > PPIE -óU-/´-u:-/-u-´ > PIE -éU-/´-oU-/-u-´
>
> where the last stage is generalization from stems in /a/ in order to achieve ablauting paradigms (under Semitic influence, as claimed by Vennemann?). Short /a/ would survive such changes.

Yes. I have no satisfactory theory of ablaut (since there is remodelling all over the place in attested languages), but I doubt that we need to posit shifting from one type of accent to another. The actual PIE accent was complex, as hinted by the way the Rig-Veda represents it.

Vennemann makes a big deal about Insular Celtic being VSO like Semitic. Lehmann has argued that when a lot of non-natives learn a language, it tends to become SVO. I see no plausible way that IC could have acquired VSO from Semitic. Anything but SVO is likely to have developed independently.

> > Likewise <albus> 'white' in my view has an old /a/.
>
> Strange things are happening around supposed PIE *albh- (*algW- ?)
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/64235
>
> similar to those around Latin/Germanic *at-n- "year"
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/45139
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/56709
> UEW
> 'oðe (o:ðe) 'Jahr' FU
> Finn. vuosi (Gen. vuoden) 'Jahr'
> (> lapp. N vuod´d´â ~ vuod´â: v-lo,kko 'date(year)');
> est. voos (Gen. vooe) 'Jahr'; Jahresertrag, Ernte, Ausbeute; Mal' (mõnel vooel 'manchmal', se vooe 'dieses Mal') |
>
> lapp. N *vuottâ-d´:
> vu:ttii-val'det 'take into account, have regard to',
> vuottâ -d´- : buorrev. 'goodness', nuorrâv. 'youth',
> dâm vuod´âst 'in that respect, as far as that goes, for the matter of that',
> L -vuohta : puorre:v. 'Güte' |
>
> wotj. (ESK unter vo)
> wa: waz´-w. pozapros^lyj god',
> va, wa: S v.-pum, G w.-pum, J v.-pun, 'Zeit, Lebenszeit, Menschenalter' (pum, pun, 'Ende, Spitze'),
> ? S vales, G wales: v. n´an´, w.-ju 'Sommerkorn, Sommersaat' (n´an´'Brot, Getreide', ju 'Getreide'),
> (Wichm., mitg. Uot.: MSFOu. 65: 63) MU u: tauberis´ 'folgendes Jahr |
>
> syrj.
> S vo, P u: mejm-u 'im vorigen Jahre'
> PO u : ta u 'heuer', mejm~u 'voriges Jahr',
> S vos´a, P os´a Sommergetreide (Gerste S P), Hafer, Weizen (P))' |
>
> ostj. (109) V al, DN ot, Kaz. oL 'Jahr' [ ? ung. -valy: tavaly 'voriges Jahr, im vorigen od. vergangenen Jahre, im Vorjahre, im letzten Jahre'.
>
> Finn. v, syrj. v und wotj. v, w sind vor dem labialen Vokal entstandene sekundäre Konsonanten. Ung. v in tavaly ist zur Vermeidung des Hiatus entstanden: *taal > taval > tavaly; ly ist durch Palatalisation aus l entstanden.
>
> Falls wotj. vales hierher gehört, sind im Perm. zwei Vertretungen von FU *ð vorhanden: *ð > ø und *ð > l.'

My new strategy is to address one word at a time. I find 'hunger' very important.

> >
> > And while I may not be able to disprove the notion of ablauting
> > PIE-speakers overrunning earlier non-ablauting speakers, I find it
> > hard to believe that the same scenario occurred exactly the same
> > way in different areas,
>
> AFAI can see, all we need to assume to make that scenario work is that at a certain time the hearth of the nomad attacks developed ablaut.
>
> > and that the pre-IE substrate was always insulated from the
> > ablauting Hochsprache by this Niedersprache.
>
> ?? Who said that?

It would follow from the scenario you suggested, since the ablauting nomads would not directly conquer any non-IE-speakers, only non-ablauting IE-speakers who had already absorbed the substraters.

The real problem here is that the words with /a/ seldom show the "upper-class" variants with /e/ and /o/.

DGK