Re: Sos-

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> >
> > > > > I have argued for years that <lacus> and <mare> are
> > > > > geomorphic loanwords into Latin from a language of the
> > > > > Illyrian type.
> > > > >
> > > > > Meillet's theory of /a/ as a marker for 'mots populaires'
> > > > > is rather outdated.
> > > >
> > > > It was more like an observation, I think.
> > >
> > > Colored by the difficulty of fitting many of these words, e.g.
> > > Lat. <cardo:> 'hinge', into the e/o/zero ablaut paradigm. But
> > > further developments in 20th-century IE studies have removed
> > > much of the apparent trouble with the /a/.
> >
> > I'll agree with 'schwa secundum' in phonetically difficult
> > contexts, as Jens proposed.
> >
> > > To me it creates much more trouble to assume that
> > > Indo-Europeans had a clearly defined "Hochsprache" and
> > > "Niedersprache", with the low-brow rabble clumsily uttering /a/
> > > rather than the refined /e/ and /o/ of the upper class.
> >
> > Why not? Most societies today have similar shibboleths. All
> > mobile steppe societies divide people into those who matter (us)
> > and the others (sedentary) who shouldn't get ideas. Besides, most
> > likely the PIE thematic vowel /e|o|zero/ was PPIE /a/ (that way
> > -i, -u and thematic stems were originally -i, -u and -a stems).
> > If late, PIE invasions overran early, PPIE invasions, you'd get
> > exactly such a vowel-marked Hochsprache/Niedersprache mix. Kuhn's
> > 'Ablaut, /a/ und Altertumskunde'
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/30032
> > which I recommend, notes such a temporal procession in loans, but
> > ascribes it to 'fashion'. Besides, there is not really such a big
> > difference between the sociolect and the dialect(loan)
> > hypotheses, only the assumption of a conquest.
>
> I have a copy of that paper, which I should probably revisit. I
> agree the Old PIE thematic vowel was */a/, and I believe this was
> preserved as */a/ in later PIE in heavy syllables in non-verbal
> forms. For example Lat. <falx> 'sickle', Sicel <zagkle:>,
> Liguro-Latin <daculum>, Gallo-Rom. dial. <dal>, <daille>, etc. (by
> dissimilation from *dalklom vel sim.) have what I regard as
> original /a/ in the noun *dHalgH-s, *dHalgH-os, etc. corresponding
> to the verbal root *dHelgH-.

I hadn't thought of that, but it makes a lot of sense.
This is what I thought happened to cause ablauting paradigms:

PPPIE *a: > PPIE -é:-/´-o:-/-Ø-´ > PIE -é-/´-o(:)-/-Ø-´
PPPIE *i: > PPIE -éI-/´-i:-/-i-´ > PIE -éI-/´-oI-/-i-´
PPPIE *u: > PPIE -óU-/´-u:-/-u-´ > PIE -éU-/´-oU-/-u-´

where the last stage is generalization from stems in /a/ in order to achieve ablauting paradigms (under Semitic influence, as claimed by Vennemann?). Short /a/ would survive such changes.

> Likewise <albus> 'white' in my view has an old /a/.

Strange things are happening around supposed PIE *albh- (*algW- ?)
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/64235

similar to those around Latin/Germanic *at-n- "year"
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/45139
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/56709
UEW
'oðe (o:ðe) 'Jahr' FU
Finn. vuosi (Gen. vuoden) 'Jahr'
(> lapp. N vuod´d´â ~ vuod´â: v-lo,kko 'date(year)');
est. voos (Gen. vooe) 'Jahr'; Jahresertrag, Ernte, Ausbeute; Mal' (mõnel vooel 'manchmal', se vooe 'dieses Mal') |

lapp. N *vuottâ-d´:
vu:ttii-val'det 'take into account, have regard to',
vuottâ -d´- : buorrev. 'goodness', nuorrâv. 'youth',
dâm vuod´âst 'in that respect, as far as that goes, for the matter of that',
L -vuohta : puorre:v. 'Güte' |

wotj. (ESK unter vo)
wa: waz´-w. pozapros^lyj god',
va, wa: S v.-pum, G w.-pum, J v.-pun, 'Zeit, Lebenszeit, Menschenalter' (pum, pun, 'Ende, Spitze'),
? S vales, G wales: v. n´an´, w.-ju 'Sommerkorn, Sommersaat' (n´an´'Brot, Getreide', ju 'Getreide'),
(Wichm., mitg. Uot.: MSFOu. 65: 63) MU u: tauberis´ 'folgendes Jahr |

syrj.
S vo, P u: mejm-u 'im vorigen Jahre'
PO u : ta u 'heuer', mejm~u 'voriges Jahr',
S vos´a, P os´a Sommergetreide (Gerste S P), Hafer, Weizen (P))' |

ostj. (109) V al, DN ot, Kaz. oL 'Jahr' [ ? ung. -valy: tavaly 'voriges Jahr, im vorigen od. vergangenen Jahre, im Vorjahre, im letzten Jahre'.

Finn. v, syrj. v und wotj. v, w sind vor dem labialen Vokal entstandene sekundäre Konsonanten. Ung. v in tavaly ist zur Vermeidung des Hiatus entstanden: *taal > taval > tavaly; ly ist durch Palatalisation aus l entstanden.

Falls wotj. vales hierher gehört, sind im Perm. zwei Vertretungen von FU *ð vorhanden: *ð > ø und *ð > l.'

>
> And while I may not be able to disprove the notion of ablauting
> PIE-speakers overrunning earlier non-ablauting speakers, I find it
> hard to believe that the same scenario occurred exactly the same
> way in different areas,

AFAI can see, all we need to assume to make that scenario work is that at a certain time the hearth of the nomad attacks developed ablaut.

> and that the pre-IE substrate was always insulated from the
> ablauting Hochsprache by this Niedersprache.

?? Who said that?


Torsten