From: Torsten
Message: 65055
Date: 2009-09-18
>V. I. Abaev
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Francesco Brighenti" <frabrig@> wrote:
>
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> >
> > > Is the following scenario possible:
> > >
> > > Yazygian has a root *far- (< *par-, f- < p-, cf (Alanic? and)
> > > Ossetic) "hostile, other" (cf. Pokorny:
> > >
> > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65037 )
> > >
> > > and the derivative *far-áng- "enemy, one of the others".
> > > Yazygians in Pannonia use them to designate the Romans and
> > > those who enter their service. In the language of those people
> > > this becomes their self-designation and *faráng- becomes
> > > pre-Frankish *fráng- (or, if p- was preserved in Yazygian,
> > > *par-áng- > *fr-áng-, cf. Avestan); when they adopt PGmc as
> > > language it becomes with Grimm *fránk-.
> >
> > Premising that I have provided you with hard linguistic data
> > (viz., attested words with the relative dates of their first
> > attestation) and an inferred transmission scenario compatible
> > with the same, whereas you are just inventing some non-attested
> > words (such as your North Iranian suffix *-áng: what was it, and
> > how was it used to form new words?)
>
> No need to go all porcupine, it was just a question.
> It might be related to *-ák, see below.
>
> > and a most implausible transmission scenario,
>
> Implausible? How?
>
> > I wish to point you to the following data:
> >
> > 1) The Old Indic adjective paìra-, whose basic meanings are
> > 'farther, utmost, on the other side of (etc.)' was nominalized
> > with the meanings 'another (different from one's self), a
> > foreigner, alien, enemy', but the corresponding Old Iranian
> > adjective para- 'farther, away from, different from (etc.)' did
> > *not* denote enemity.
>
> Old Iranian? You mean *para-, right? And how do you know that?
>
> > It is, in case, the Old Persian compound word para-tara
> > (lit. 'the one farther out, the one more beyond') -- which,
> > AFAIK, is *not* attested in the Avesta, although it probably
> > existed in Old Iranian -- that has this meaning (check out your
> > Pokorny again!).
>
> So, in Old Iranian (Proto-Iranian?) *para-tara- meant "enemy", and
> therefore Old Iranian *para- did not mean "enemy", but Old Indic
> paìra-(pára-h?) did?
>
> > Therefore, you cannot trace the meaning 'enemy, one of the
> > others' to Old Iranian para- *if taken alone*.
>
> Wherefore?
>
> > 2) V.F. Miller and J. Harmatta derive Ossetic faldær 'farther'
> > from Old Iranian *para-tara (admitted this compound word existed
> > at that stage of linguistic development). Ossetic fal(e)- 'on the
> > other side' is a North Iranian reflex of Old Iranian *para-: cp.
> > fal-ærdæm 'to the other side'. Now, you see that we are still far
> > from your postulated "Yazygian" root **far-; indeed, the -r-
> > necessary to produce "Frank" is lacking in this North Iranian
> > reflex of Old Iranian para-. Moreover, the word fale- *alone*
> > does not mean 'enemy' in Ossetic.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saphrax
> Safrac, considered an Alanic name, has -r-.
> It has been etymologized as Germanic 'sa frak' "the bold one", cf.
> German frech "daring, insolent"
>
> According to
> http://helimski.com/2.200.doc
> '(?) [Hungarian] embër "Mensch" <
> (früh)alan. (iran. *ham-ba:rya- wörtl. "Mitreiter, Mitkämpfer") ->
> oss. æmbal "Kamerad, Gefährte" // Abaev EH 530.
> Diese attraktive Etymologie von Abaev ist nicht problemlos:
> (a) die unbelegte iranische Form *ham-ba:rya- ist nicht die einzige
> denkbare Quelle des oss. Wortes æmbal, vgl. IESO I, 135;
> (b) man muß mit der (unsicheren) Erklärung des ung. Wortes als
> einer Zusammensetzung aus ursprachlichen Elementen (s. UEW 74, 84)
> rechnen.'
>
> so the /r/ -> /l/ thing seems to be later than Alanic.
>