Re: Frankish origins

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Francesco Brighenti" <frabrig@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
>
> > Is the following scenario possible:
> >
> > Yazygian has a root *far- (< *par-, f- < p-, cf (Alanic? and)
> > Ossetic) "hostile, other" (cf. Pokorny:
> >
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65037 )
> >
> > and the derivative *far-áng- "enemy, one of the others". Yazygians
> > in Pannonia use them to designate the Romans and those who enter
> > their service. In the language of those people this becomes their
> > self-dignation and *faráng- becomes pre-Frankish *fráng- (or, if
> > p- was preserved in Yazygian, *par-áng- > *fr-áng-, cf. Avestan);
> > when they adopt PGmc as language it becomes with Grimm *fránk-.
>
> Premising that I have provided you with hard linguistic data (viz.,
> attested words with the relative dates of their first attestation)
> and an inferred transmission scenario compatible with the same,
> whereas you are just inventing some non-attested words (such as
> your North Iranian suffix *-áng: what was it, and how was it used
> to form new words?)

No need to go all porcupine, it was just a question.
It might be related to *-ák, see below.

> and a most implausible transmission scenario,

Implausible? How?

> I wish to point you to the following data:
>
> 1) The Old Indic adjective paìra-, whose basic meanings are
> 'farther, utmost, on the other side of (etc.)' was nominalized with
> the meanings 'another (different from one's self), a foreigner,
> alien, enemy', but the corresponding Old Iranian adjective para-
> 'farther, away from, different from (etc.)' did *not* denote
> enemity.

Old Iranian? You mean *para-, right? And how do you know that?

> It is, in case, the Old Persian compound word para-tara
> (lit. 'the one farther out, the one more beyond') -- which, AFAIK,
> is *not* attested in the Avesta, although it probably existed in
> Old Iranian -- that has this meaning (check out your Pokorny
> again!).

So, in Old Iranian (Proto-Iranian?) *para-tara- meant "enemy", and therefore Old Iranian *para- did not mean "enemy", but Old Indic paìra-(pára-h?) did?

> Therefore, you cannot trace the meaning 'enemy, one of the others'
> to Old Iranian para- *if taken alone*.

Wherefore?

> 2) V.F. Miller and J. Harmatta derive Ossetic faldær 'farther' from
> Old Iranian *para-tara (admitted this compound word existed at that
> stage of linguistic development). Ossetic fal(e)- 'on the other
> side' is a North Iranian reflex of Old Iranian *para-: cp.
> fal-ærdæm 'to the other side'. Now, you see that we are still far
> from your postulated "Yazygian" root **far-; indeed, the -r-
> necessary to produce "Frank" is lacking in this North Iranian
> reflex of Old Iranian para-. Moreover, the word fale- *alone* does
> not mean 'enemy' in Ossetic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saphrax
Safrac, considered an Alanic name, has -r-.
It has been etymologized as Germanic 'sa frak' "the bold one", cf. German frech "daring, insolent"

According to
http://helimski.com/2.200.doc
'(?) [Hungarian] embër "Mensch" <
(früh)alan. (iran. *ham-ba:rya- wörtl. "Mitreiter, Mitkämpfer") ->
oss. æmbal "Kamerad, Gefährte" // Abaev EH 530.
– Diese attraktive Etymologie von Abaev ist nicht problemlos:
(a) die unbelegte iranische Form *ham-ba:rya- ist nicht die einzige denkbare Quelle des oss. Wortes æmbal, vgl. IESO I, 135;
(b) man muß mit der (unsicheren) Erklärung des ung. Wortes als einer Zusammensetzung aus ursprachlichen Elementen (s. UEW 74, 84) rechnen.'

so the /r/ -> /l/ thing seems to be later than Alanic.

> What then?

You tell me.


Torsten