From: george knysh
Message: 65019
Date: 2009-09-14
--- On Mon, 9/14/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
Since we agree in principle that Sarmatians were present in the flesh in the west, in particular in the Mus^ov princely grave, traditionally called Germanic,
****GK: Mus^ov is a Germanic and not a Sarmatian grave though it may contain Sarmatian objects. Just like the Pereshchypinskyj 7th c. grave, loaded with Byzantine objects, is not a Byzantine but a Bulgarian grave, and just as the Kuban 1rst c. graves, loaded with Roman objects, are not Roman but Alanic graves. You can't see what all scientific archaeologists see because your Snorrist "science" leaves you in cloud kookooland.****
which you assign to a relative of the Sarmatian kings Pharzoios and Inismeios on the basis of the tamgas in the grave, which occur also in the similar grave in C^atalka which along with Vize is traditionally called Thracian, and thus also must contain a Sarmatian,
****GK: The conclusion is a non-sequitur. Yatsenko has adequately explained the presence of tamgas on Germanic spearheads.*****
but disagree only on the estimate of their relative share in the emerging upper class of the Przeworsk culture,
****GK: You have offered no proof other than Heimskringla... A 13th century euhemeristic fantasy which you misinterpret to be genuine popular tradition has no scientific standing compared to the analyses of professiona historians and archaeologists.*****
which became the upper class of the Germanic-speaking countries,
*****GK: In the last eight years you have not offered a single adequate proof other than your interpretations of Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla fantasies to back up the notion that the Przeworsk culture (the eventual Vandals) was the incubator of "the upper class of the Germanic-speakig countries".***
and since it doesn't matter much to you anyhow, I think I'll call you a Sarmatist and an Odinist. From now on all we'll have to argue about is percentages.
****GK: You're quite free to argue with yourself. I can't stop you. But don't confuse your unending Snorrist mantras with scientific argument. No ne else does afaik.****
Cf. besides, but about a later time
****GK: More unproductive scavenging... They have solid proof of Alanic etc. presence in the West and wonder what eventually happened to them there. You, othe ther hand, have no proof of Sarmatian presence in Przeworsk, and of Przeworsk expansion over Germania.****
from
Vladimir Kuznecov
A propos des Alains et des Sarmates
en Europe Occidentale à l'Époque des Grandes Migrations
in
Michel Kazanski & Vanessa Soupault
Les Sites archéologiques en Crimée et au Caucase
durant l'Antiquité tardive et le haut Moyen-Age
.'
BTW, on another topic, later:
'Un autre groupe alain venu en Occident était sans doute d'origine caucasienne, comme le temoignerat Eusèbe qui parle de "loups du Nord", ennemis de l'Empire (les Huns et les Alains?), venus des roches du Caucase (Eusebius Hieronimus, Epislola LX ad Heliodorum). '
Ie. both people of As and of Van ethnicity.
****GK: Another one of your endless instances of trying to fit Snorri's ideas to genuine history. Alans and Huns indeed. Cloud kookooland forever****
Torsten