--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "shivkhokra" <shivkhokra@...> wrote:
> Francesco has said that Yavanas were Greeks and one of his sources
> was Mahabharata.
Wait a minute. I have never said I regard the Indian epics as a reliable source for extrapolating historical data. The Indian epics do contain some historical information, yet this type of literary evidence is diluted in a sea of legendary tales that make it very hard to discern historical truth from legendary narrative in them.
> In fact this connection of Yavans with Greeks is considered the
> sheet-anchor for the dating of Mahabharata to post-Alexandrian
> times.
Which seems to be the main problem for all those Hindu nationalists like you, many among whom date the Mahabharata war to 3067 or 3102 BCE or to some other absurdly early period (admitted that that war ever took place).
> I merely pointed out that if we are using Mbh as a source then we
> ought to consider all references of Yavana in that book.
Apart from the fact that the Mbh is not a "book", why don't you start to go through the long list of textual references provided by J.L. Brockington in note 56 of his book _The Sanskrit Epics_ at
http://tinyurl.com/m9kho7 ?
Note that, at Mbh 12.200.40c, the name used according to Brockington is Yauna, not Yavana! Compare with Old Perisn Yauna 'Greeks'.
> A Yavana king in Mbh is Bhagdatta who is described as a ruler of
> modern Assam. My question to Francesco was what greeks were settled
> in Assam and could he confirm the identity of this ruler from the
> Greek sources. So how am I using non-established?
Yes, you are. Since this is the nth time in the course of this discussion you come up with this story about the mention in the Mbh of a "Yavana king" named Bhagadatta, let me briefly mention the following elements of critique, which make your triumphalistic "proof" that Yavanas were not Greeks a moot issue:
1) In certain passages of the Mbh king Bhagadatta is said to be ruling "in the west" (not in Assam, which is in the northeast!).
From Ganguli's translation of the Mbh:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m02/m02014.htm
"He also that beareth on his head that gem which is known as the most wonderful on earth, that king of the Yavanas, who hath chastised Muru and Naraka, whose power is unlimited, and who ruleth the west like another Varuna, who is called Bhagadatta, and who is the old friend of thy father..."
From Buitenen's translation of the Mbh:
http://tinyurl.com/mr67en
"The king who wears on his head the divine stone that is known as the amulet of creation, who punished the two Greek kings Mura and Naraka and rules in the West like Varuna with limitless power -- he, Bhagadatta, old friend of your father's, great king Bharata..."
2) In another passage Bhagadatta is stated to have "come with Greeks with purebred horses":
http://tinyurl.com/lytaw6
Horses of superior and excellent breed would be out of question if Bhagadatta had been a ruler of Assam, a region were horses are not known to have been bred in antiquity.
3) Although I don't give much credit to this hypothesis, there have been some scholars in the past who have claimed that "Bhagadatta" is an Indic calque of the Greek name Apollodotos. Apollodotos I Soter (reigned ca. 175-165 BCE) was the founder of the Indo-Greek (= Yavana) kingdom, and his name means 'gifted by Apollo'. Likewise, in Sanskrit Bhagadatta means 'gifted by Bhaga', and Bhaga was one of the Indian solar deities (Adityas) being mythologically similar to the Greek solar god Apollo.
4) The "yellow-complexioned" Chinas and Kiratas whom, along with the Yavanas, were part of Bhagadatta's army did not necessarily reside in or around Assam. Several scholars have distinguished between the Chinas mentioned in the Mbh and the actual Chinese, and have located the Chinas of the Mbh near the Karakorum region (indeed, they are often associated in the epic with the Yavanas and Kambojas, two peoples of the NW). Moreover, how could Bhagadatta, who is also said in the Mbh to have ruled on people "dwelling on the coast" (presumably that of Bengal), have extended his kingdom from the Bay of Bengal to Assam and the Himalayas (where the Kiratas lived) and up to the "West" (the 'classic' settlement area of the Yavanas)? Was Bhagadatta's kingdom real, or merely a legendary one?
5) It appears more likely that Bhagadatta of the Mbh, if he was a real historical character, was a king ruling somewhere in the NW and that his lineage (the Naraka-Bhagadatta lineage) was transplanted to Assam/Pragjyotisha, where a "Bhagadatta" dynasty (the Varmans of Kamarupa) started to reign in the early centuries of the 1st mill. CE, at an undeterminable date. This historically documented dynasty is referred to in the Puranas (e.g. the Vishnu Purana) as descending from the Naraka-Bhagadatta lineage that finds mention in the Mbh.
More could be added to this discussion, but I think my point is clear enough. We are still left with the fact that "Yavanas" were originally Greeks, and later Indo-Greeks and merchants from the Roman East sailing across the Arabian Sea to trade with Malabar. A huge amount of literary and epigraphic sources point to this direction. Please acknowledge this plain fact, Shivraj, and don't try to muddle the waters further.
Regards,
Francesco