Venet(d)ic issues Was Re: [tied] Clonix, Clondicus

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

>
>
> --- On Mon, 8/17/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
> > > GK: The Aestii could have been a Celtic group (Tacitus speaks
> > > of their "British"-like language) /he knew nothing of British
> > > Veneti/
> >
> > There is nothing Celtic about them, AFAIK.
>
> ****GK: Not even by Caesar's time? If your Armorican theory (below) is true****

My Armorican conjecture needs for the Veneti and Osismi to be non-Celtic, at least in language. And sailing the sea is not really a Celtic thing.

> > But the Aestii, as related here
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aestii
> > might be related to the Osismi/Ostimoi
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osismi
>
> ****GK: Have you checked this in Caesar, Pliny, and Strabo?

It's a conjecture. They don't mention any connection.

Why would Tacitus' spelling differ ?****

Here's an entry from Vasmer:
ustá pl. 'Mund', poet. u. dial.,
ukr. wruss. vustá,
aruss. abulg. usta stóma (Supr.),
bulg. ustá (Mladenov 656),
skr., sloven. ústa,
c^ech. slk. ústa,
poln. usta,
osorb. wusta,
nsorb. husta.
Ursl. usta pl., nicht dual. ...
Urverw. mit
apreuß. austo 'Mund',
lit. áus^c^ioti 'schwatzen, munkeln',
aind. ved. ó:s.t.has m. 'Lippe',
du. ós.t.ha:u 'die Lippen',
avest. aos^ta- m. 'Lippe',
lat. ausculum eigtl. 'Mundchen'.
Ablaut in
lit. uostà f., úostas m. 'Flußmündung',
aind. a:s-, a:sán-, a:syám n. 'Mund',
lat. o:s G. o:ris n. 'Mund',
avest. ah dass.,
ir. ã 'Mund',
anord. óss m. 'Flußmündung',
lat. o:stium dass.

cf the Uralic entr in UEW
an,e 'Öffnung, Einschnitt, Vertiefung' Uralic
Lapp. N vuon,âs -gn,- 'halter or band on the muzzle of a dog, to prevent it from biting reindeer',
L vuon,asti- '(einen Hund) mit Maulkorb versehen' |

mord. (Paas.: MSFOu. 22:43)
E on,-, oj-, M ov-: E (Pl.) onks´t´, ojkst,
M ovks 'Gebiß am Zaum' |

? tscher. (Ramst.)
KB än, 'Mündung', (PS) B an, 'Öffnung des Sacks' |

wotj.
S im, K &^m 'Mund; Öffnung, Mündung',
(Wichm.) G î.m 'Mund' |

syrj. S vom, Ud. vem, P em 'Mund, Öffnung, (Ud. auch) Mündung', PO um 'Mund' |

ostj. (32) V on,, DN on,, O un, 'Mund, Mündung (einer Reuse, einer Flasche, eines Flusses u. a.)' |

ung. (dial.) aj, áj 'Kerbe; Tal, Schlucht'
(GN: Nagy -áj, Szilas -áj, Elö´ -áj, Kis -áj),
ajak 'Lippe', felajz- '(Bogen) spannen; aufregen, aufreizen, reizen, aufhetzen; (altung.) aufspreizen' ||

sam
jur. (300)O n´a?, Nj. n´an,? 'Mund';
jen. Ch. ê? (Gen. eo?), B na? (Gen. nâ?);
twg. n,ân,; selk. Ta. oang, Ke. aang, áng, (Donn. Mskr.) Ty. a:q (joen) suu; Flußmündung',
(Leht.: MSFOu. 122: 318) Tur. äq;
kam. an,;
koib. (Beitr. 28) an;
mot. (ebd.) ag-ma;
karag. (Leht.: FUF 21 :9) en ðe;
taig. (Beitr. 28) än,-de.

Vgl. alt.: *amn,a:
türk. aGïz 'Mund',
tschuw. var,
mong. ang 'Öffnung', aman 'Mund',
tung. amn,a 'Mund, Mündung'.

Lapp. s und mord. ks sind denom. Nominalsuffixe.

Die Zugehörigkeit des tscher. Wortes ist wegen der interdialektalen Entsprechung ä ~ a unsicher.'


This root could be the origin of the Aestii name, thus in my conjecture also for Ostimoi, Osismi. It seems to capture the various variants, which can then be explained as dialect variation.

> > who lived next to and allied with the Veneti
> > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Veneti_%28Gaul% 29
> > in Armorica
> > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Armorica
> > the inhabitants of which according to Posidonius were Belgae
>
> ****GK: Have you checked the exact reference?

No.

> Why would Caesar (who knew the area much better than Posidonius)
> not make this point?****

No occasion to? And they might have been bilingual by the time

> > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Belgae
> > (who were also settled in Britain)
>
> ****GK: You know that my view is that Caesar referred to the Belgae
> as having a language distinct from that of the Gauls and
> Aquitanians because he identified them with their Germanic-speaking
> component as of 58 BCE. The following year (if he wrote his books
> year by year as reports without some eventual general editorial
> review) he may have modified this perception somewhat. But if most
> of the Belgae spoke Celtic in his time, would those of Britain not
> also have? Which might explain Tacitus as to the Aestii?****

That scenario would work. But there's nothing Celtic archaeologically about the Aestii, AFAIK.

> > just like the Aestii in the Baltic lived next to and probably
> > borrowed the language of the Baltic Veneti
>
> ****GK: Which was also "like the British"? I.e. a form of Celtic by
> then?

I can't dismiss that out of hand.

> OTOH what if "Venedic" (Baltic and in the interior) was a
> language exhibiting both "Celtic" and "Illyrian" traits?

I'd have to have a list of traits to determine that.

> I'll have a look at and make a list of some "Celto-Illyrian" names
> associated with the Zarubinians (who largely stemmed from the
> Pomorians/Lusatians).****
> Rain check on the rest.
>

OK


Torsten