From: tgpedersen
Message: 64719
Date: 2009-08-13
>The Vandals
> --- On Wed, 8/12/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- In cybalist@... s.com, george knysh <gknysh@> wrote:
> >
> > Here are the main conclusions in S. Yatsenko's article aboutÂ
> > Sarmatian gakks on Germanic spearheads.
> >
> > He notes that so far 12 such spearheads (with 23 distinct
> > markers/gakks) have been found: 7 in Poland, 2 in Germany, 2 in
> > Ukraine, 1 in Norway. The Polish and Ukrainian finds are all from
> > the Przeworsk culture area. All spearheads were made and
> > inscribed
> > in the period ca.150-250 CE.
>
> >
> > NB: Yatsenko follows Baran in attributing the spearheads to the
> > Goths. I don't think this is the case, since none were found in
> > the Wielbark area. At best they could be spearheads of those
> > Vandals who collaborated in the Gothic invasion of Ukraine in the
> > 230's.
> > But the timeline also allows them to be associated with the
> > Vandal assault on the Costoboci in Galicia in 172 CE.
> >
>
> That timeline doesn't allow for
> 1) the sites Yatsenko lets occupy a special place in Valle, Norway
> and Bodzhanovo, Lower Vistula, since spearheads found there have
> the gakk of king Farsoi (45 - 70)
>
> ****GK: Yatsenko argues that the spearheads could not have been
> made earlier than 150 CE. Perhaps the evidence for this is
> available in the full printed article. But this is an important
> point for him. He doesn't say much online about Valle, but he does
> mention that the Bodzhanovo spearhead is from a burial which he
> dates as of the 150-250 CE period. He claims that only 4 of the 23
> discovered gakks on these spearheads can be shown to have been
> still operative among Sarmatians in 150-250, and this leads him to
> conclude that 19 of the 23 belonged to extinct clans as of 150.
> Including the gakk of Farzoi. Some new dynasty would have become
> "Spalian" kings of Scythia as a result of deadly conflict between
> incomers and Farzoi's descendants. That is why he is saying that
> the Farzoi gakk is an "inheritance" value by 150. And he insists
> that the dating of the actual object proves his point, i.e. there
> was certainly a Farzoi gakk in the 50's and 60's (it is found
> on other objects) but it did not then exist on Germanic spearheads.
> It seems possible, however, to argue that the presence of the Valle
> spearhead does not prove 100% that Farzoi had diplomatic relations
> there. It could have been brought there by a migrant. The Przeworsk
> (Vandalic) connection seems to be the best bet (so far).
> And if he is right about the time of these spearheads' manufactureOn the other hand, if the upper layer had been Sarmatized to a
> the events I mentioned are good candidates for "important
> occurrences" (of course it could have been something else: after
> all 100 years is a long time.****
> , norSounds right.
> 2) those at Porogi on the middle Dniestr with the gakk of his
> successor Inismei (70 - 85),
>
> ****GK: This is different from the spearhead evidence. The gakked
> items at Porogi (including a beautiful jewel incrusted poniard) are
> in a 1rst c. CE Aorsan burial, and thus contemporary to
> Inismei.*****
>
>
> nor
> 3) those in the Kashava Drahana barrow in C^atalka, Bulgaria, which
> contained gakks of both kings,
>
> *****GK: But the barrow is also 1rst c. CE acc. to Shchukin's
> various possibilities.*****
>
> nor
> 4) presumably the one in Vize, Turkey, which is generally
> considered contemporaneous with it, nor
> 5) the kingly grave in Mus^ov of the middle early Imperial period,
> B2 (if that marking on the type III spearhead really is a gakk),
>
> ****GK: B2 would be 80-150 CE?
> I've re-examined your upload of type III on the basis of my newlyIt really annoys me that I didn't figure out that myself, so before I
> acquired gakk-reading expertise (:=)) and compared the signs to
> those in the Yatsenko article. There are most definitely three
> gakks there, distinct yet closely related. What is even more
> interesting is that they are most certainly of the Farzoi family
> type! Not Farzoi's own but very close. The Farzoi gakk was a
> straight line topped by a simple half moon on one side and an
> inverted half moon on the bottom side. The Mushov gakks are all
> variants of this: one is in the form of a cross which is actually a
> Farzoi marker crossed with another Farzoi marker. Another is like a
> Farzoi marker broken in half with the two pieces rejoined at right
> angle at the middle. The third is also a broken up Farzoi type with
> the pieces connected by a straight line at the middle. Apart from
> this, the spearhead has a number of circular lunar or solar signs,
> which to Yatsenko would indicate that it is Germanic. If the dating
> of the grave is as above, it is possible that these gakks belonged
> to a successor of Inismei (Farzoi's royal clan seems to have ruled
> until the mid-2nd c.CE. But other interpretations are also possible
> (Farzoi's brother? or some other relative?.*****
> compared by Pes^ka and Tejral to the ones in C^atalka and Vize.Not AFAIK.
>
> ****GK: Any gakks in Vize?****