From: shivkhokra
Message: 64665
Date: 2009-08-09
--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Francesco Brighenti" <frabrig@...> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "shivkhokra" <shivkhokra@> wrote:
>
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Francesco Brighenti" <frabrig@>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Dear Shivraj,
> > >
> > > Re: your post at
> > >
> > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/64610
> > >
> > > I cannot do again all the research made by historians for you.
> > > Please take your time and go through the many published books and
> > > articles dealing with the topic of Greek, Saka, Parthian, Huna
> > > etc. invasions of NW South Asia in the early historical period.
> > > You will then see that many of those *foreign* ('mlechchha')
> > > invaders, coming from across the Hindu Kush, became settled in
> > > India and were soon absorbed into the Hindu caste system as
> > > kshatriyas.
> >
> > I am afraid these are just myths *without any* evidence. I asked
> > you for data but you are merely repeating your speculation. Why
> > don't you cite evidence that we can analyse?
> >
> > > http://tinyurl.com/ncm72b
> >
> > This page has a reference to "fallen kshatriya" but there is no
> > primary source given which was utilized by this author. So maybe
> > you know and can help us?
> >
> > > http://tinyurl.com/ntxm2y
> >
> > Yet again a mention of fallen kshatriya. But author provides no
> > primary source that one can check.
>
> Now check the following:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/l4nr2g
> "The mleccha bot indigenous and foreigner had acquired political power and a new concept was necessary. It was probably largely to circumvent this problem that the term vratyaksatriya (degenerate ksatriya) became current in describing the origin and status of such peoples. It was maintained that in origin they were of the ksatriya varna and that their degeneration was due to the non-performance of sacred rites, or because of the wrath of the brahmans when they ceased to perform the sacred rites [Note 62: Manu X, 43-4; Mahabharata, Anusasana Parva 35.17ff., Vana Parva 48.20ff., Sa. Parva 65.13ff.]. Among the foreign rulers included as vratya ksatriyas were the Yavanas and the Sakas (Scythians)."
>
Before we get into the writing and speculations of the Kluge award winning Ms. Thapar we would like to ascertain if she, or you, have bothered to read the original sources? Let me reproduce a brief section from Mahabharata (Sabha Parva: 2.14) :
"He also that beareth on his head that gem which is known as the most wonderful on earth, that king of the *Yavanas*, who hath chastised Muru and Naraka, whose power is unlimited, and who ruleth the west like another Varuna, who is called Bhagadatta, and who is the old friend of thy father, hath bowed his head before Jarasandha, by speech and specially by act."
So which Yavana (Greek or foreigner according to you) king was called Bhagdatta perhaps from Greek sources you can point out the identity of this Greek king who was helping the kauravas during Mahabharata time?
Furthermore this yavana king is the ruler of Pragjyotishpur which is modern Assam. So if you can place greeks to be dwellers of assam we can perhaps buy your argument.
<rest of the post about degraded kshatriyas snipped. To be discussed later>
> > > http://tinyurl.com/nqscd7
> >
> > This author mentions "Huns married Indian women". But I could not
> > find what is he sourcing this data on? He does not cite any
> > reference that we can check. Do you know the source for this
> > statement?
>
> http://tinyurl.com/nlwqpu
> "[About the 9th century CE] a Guhilla king of the Udaipur region proudly married the daughter of a Huna king [Note 107: Atpur Inscription of Saktikumar]. Yet the founder of the Guhilla kingdom claimed to be e brahman."
>
This is anachronistic. Huns were driven away from India by Baladitya and Yashodharman in 6th century.
For the sake of argument even if we believe your statement above about Huns as true and the marriage of *foreigner* Kshatrapas with native satvhanas (though you have not given us the names of who married who) many centuries earlier you have offered two examples about 700 years apart.
If the marriage with foreigners was a raging practice, so much so that you are claiming that it should have left a genetic impact on Indians, why are you not offering us more examples of greeks intermarrying with Hindus? After all we have menander's inscriptions from Allahabad don't we? Besides greeks were such "excellent" record keepers someone should have left some thing? Roxanne is well known!
Regards,
Shivraj