Re: Barba and Bestia: bH>b (dissimilation)

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "caotope" <johnvertical@...> wrote:

> > Also, B can be reconstructed in many languages (coming from r next to a (bi)labial or r/w next to a labiovelar), in most of which it optionally became either w or r, such as North Caucasian *!wïn?i 'belly':
>
> I might prefer *rW here, tho maybe it doesn't matter all that much.

It seems r.u > r.Wu > rWu > lWu in those languages in which rW occurred (like rY > lY). In some languages CWa > CWO, etc., so it did matter (although RW > B was optional and common).

> > > What the heck is that stuff supposed to be? *R suggests something
> > Afro-Asiatic,
> >
> > How so? It is found in many languages.
>
> Few north of the Mediterranean however. (Indeed few uvulars of any sort, until the rise of the French/German/Portuguese/etc. uvular R.)

Do you have any evidence showing how r was pronounced by the speakers of any historical language of Europe before extremely recent times? The available evidence of alternation, small though it is, shows the existence of R. When compared to all IE reconstructions, there can be no doubt that K > Q next to w or u, which optionally alternated (kw > qw > Rw > Gw or > Lw, etc.).

Some were more common than others. Most were more common in the past, such as:


From PIE *mYHaNwóón. 'son' > Celt *manuu / manaa; weak stem manan+ 'son (of the sea)' > OIr Manu / Mana; gen Manann 'Isle of Mann'

with opt. *mYHeNwóón. > *mYHoÑWóón. > Celt *monuu / monaa > Mona


came the derivative with *xakYwyaax > *aqWiyaa 'island', which showed great variation:


*manan+aqYwiyaa
*mananaqYwiyaa
*mananaqWYiyaa
*mananaqWiyaa
*mananaqWiyaa *mananaqWidYaa
*mananaqWiyaa *mananaXWiyaa
*mananaqWiyaa *mananaRWiyaa
*mananaqWiyaa *mananaRWiyaa *mananaBiyaa
*mananaqWiyaa *mananaRWiyaa *mananawiyaa
*mananapiyaa *mananaRWiyaa *mananawiyaa


*monan+aqYwiyaa
*monanaqYwiyaa
*monanaqWYiyaa
*monanaqWiyaa
*monanaqWiyaa *monanaqWidYaa
*monanaqWiyaa *monanaXWiyaa
*monanaqWiyaa *monanaRWiyaa
*monanaqWiyaa *monanaRWiyaa *monanaBiyaa
*monanaqWiyaa *monanaRWiyaa *monanawiyaa
*monanapiyaa *monanaRWiyaa *monanawiyaa


opt. haplology / n-n dissimilation:

*mananapiyaa *mananaRWiyaa *mananawiyaa
*manapiyaa *manaRWiyaa *manawiyaa

*monanapiyaa *monanaRWiyaa *monanawiyaa
*monapiyaa *monaRWiyaa *monawiyaa


So, to recorded names:


*monapiyaa
*monapiyaa *monabiyaa
Monapia Monabia

*manawiyaa
*mainawyaa
*mainawyaa *maiwanyaa
Maenavia Mevania

*monanaRWiyaa
*monaRWiyanaa
Monarina

*monawiyaa
*monawidYaa
Monaoida

_


From PIE *kYaTYú+; weak kYaTYr.+ (often mixed > *kYaTYr.ú+) 'slaughter, battle'; came the Celt god *bHeLit.okYaTYr.ú+ / *bHaLit.okYaTYr.ú+ and:


*bHelit.okYaTYr.ú+
*bHelit.ukYaTYr.o+
*bHelit.ukYadYr.o+
*bHelit.ukYadYr.o+ *bHelit.ukYayr.o+
*bHelit.ukYadYr.o+ *bHelit.ukYair.o+
*bHelit.ukYadYr.o+ *bHelit.ukYair.o+ *bHelit.ikYaur.o+


opt. r. > R; R>G:

*bHelit.ukYadYr.o+
*bHelit.ukYadYRo+
*bHelit.ukYadYGo+
*bHelit.ukYaGo+

Belatucadros, Balatucairus, Belatugagus, etc.

_


And in Germanic:

*staxwo+
*staxwo+ *staXwo+ (opt.)
*staxwo+ *staRwo+
*staxwo+ *staGwo+
*sta_wo+ *staGwo+
*staawo+ *staGwo+
*staawo+ *staqwo+ (Gmc c-shift)
*staawo+ *stakwo+
stow stack

etc.

_


*daywr.-
*daywR-
*dayRWR-
*dayGWR-
*tayqWR- (Gmc c-shift)
*taykWR-
ta:cor 'brother-in-law' OE

etc.

_


In many, an apparent kW/0 alt. for *pYèr.kWeunó+ / pYèr.kWuunó+ 'god of lightning' is explained by:


*pYèr.kWuunó+
*pYèr.qWuunó+
*pYèr.qWuunó+ *pYèr.XWuunó+
*pYèr.qWuunó+ *pYèr.RWuunó+
*pYèr.qWuunó+ *pYèr.Buunó+
*pYèr.qWuunó+ *pYèr.wuunó+


with *pYèr.wuunó+ > *pYèr.uunó+, and similar, etc.

_


Some other languages show all KW > QW with the same alt. (though usually rare), such as Armenian kW > qW > XW > h.

> > No, B also occurs in Fas (in New Guinea) and must be reconstructed for the common ancestor of Fas and (at least) most neighboring languages.
>
> Why not. Point being however that I'm surprized to see such a rare phoneme posited, and I'm curious how would you conclude the existence of such a sound? (Can we even conclude anything about its likely fate??)

It didn't disappear in every language. I saw the environment that caused it (P / KW), and its outcomes (opt., like many; but since they're often seen within a single language necessary and easily seen).

> > The PIE sound d. > d.r. (and vice versa) and d.r. > r. optionally in all IE (*d.r.u-s.t.xo- > Alb d(r)ushk-; *d.us.- 'wrong' > Iranian *d.(r.)us.mYn.- > Bactrian lruhmin 'enemy', *d.akYrYu > *r.akYr.u dis> *akYr.u 'tear' in many (r.>R>X in Hittite)).
>
> ...Are those retroflexes in PIE?

Yes.

> > I reconstruct and discuss many sounds. In order to keep each symbol to one use, and not use many arbitrarily, I use ^ for s^ (sh or S) and sY (pal.), etc., as well as s. (retro.) and s' (glot.). Of course, since in some environments sW > sw, etc., writing sY > sy is convenient as well as orderly.
>
> Yes, these are reasonable (tho I prefer the more parsimonious <S Z> for shibilants).

I need S / T / etc. for dentals (vs. alveolars).


<Y> just looks funny since I'm used to <y> being the lax close front rounded vowel, and <j> the palatal semivowel.

>
> John Vertical
>

I used to use j when I thought PIE was simpler. I need to reserve it for those languages in which palatal stops exist, or in other situations at least not to create confusion when talking about Sanskrit, etc.