From: tgpedersen
Message: 64543
Date: 2009-08-01
>That should be read as 'labial / velar alternation combined with
> > > > > > > Also plain "fly":
> > > > > > > F. *kärpä- (Livonian käärmi), Mo. karvo, Ma. karme
> > > > > > > with an irregular (non-inherited?) cluster.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Metathesis k - p?
> > > > >
> > > > > I would rather consider the possibility that the "(gad)fly"
> > > > > words come from a root of the shape #kwarPa- (with #P some
> > > > > labial), specifically "fly" from a de-labialized descendant
> > > > > #karPa, and "gadfly" from a de-velarized #parPa. By the
> > > > > semantics we expect these words to be closer related than
> > > > > the "worm" group.
> > > > >
> > > > > > It would seem we have two suffixes, -k and -m. -k is a NWB
> > > > > > suffix too. -m is part of the Caland set.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm not sure if plain -m works. Substrate loans in western
> > > > > Uralic commonly include the correspondence of Mordvinic /v/
> > > > > vs. /m/ elsewhere (for example "linden", "fog": F. lehmus,
> > > > > sumu ~ Mo. levos, suv). However here we have /p/ in Central
> > > > > Finnic. Unless the Livonian form with the expected /m/
> > > > > means that *p is a later (onomatopoetic) variant?
> > > >
> > > > How about my favorite phoneme: /n,W/, the nasal labio-velar?
> > >
> > > Well if we want to derive them all from a single form. But that
> > > doesn't seem to be necessary. This case rather looks like
> > > related substrate languages having related, but distinct,
> > > invertebrate terminology.
> >
> > Ends up as the same thing: if we want to know the structure of
> > that language family, we will have to posit proto-forms,. And
> > labial/velar stop/nasal alternation is one of the characteristics
> > of the language of geminates as defined already,
>
> With stops, maybe. Nasals simply seem to assimilate to them.
> So what exactly did you want to do with a labiovelar nasal again?Posit it for the substrate language and derive labial or velar auslaut stops of semantically related words in NWEuropean languages, geminate or nort, prenasalized or not.
> This thing needs an outline.
> > eg. dup-/dump-/dunk-/duck-.I've never heard that. ON dunka, perhaps k- derivative of ON duna "crash", say Dansk Etymologisk Ordbog, Da. dunke, Sw. dunka. The German relative of the above series is 'tünchen' "whitewash".
>
> English "dunk" is supposedly a German loan,
> and I'm not sure what you are getting at with "dup-".You will be, after you read Schrijver's article: