Fwd: Re: [tied] Re: That old Ariovistus scenario.

From: tgpedersen
Message: 64354
Date: 2009-07-08

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "gknysh" <gknysh@...> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "gknysh" <gknysh@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, gknysh@ wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- On Sun, 7/5/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > A Snorri qoute to make you happy:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://omacl.org/Heimskringla/ynglinga.html
> > > > >
> > > > > '8. ODIN'S LAWGIVING.
> > > > >
> > > > > Odin established the same law in his land that had been in
> > > > > force in Asaland. Thus he established by law that all dead
> > > > > men should be burned, and their belongings laid with them
> > > > > upon the pile, and the ashes be cast into the sea or buried
> > > > > in the earth. Thus, said he, every one will come to
> > > > > Valhalla with the riches he had with him upon the pile; and
> > > > > he would also enjoy whatever he himself had buried in the
> > > > > earth. For men of consequence a mound should be raised to
> > > > > their memory, and for all other warriors who had been
> > > > > distinguished for manhood a standing stone; which custom
> > > > > remained long after Odin's time.'
> > > > >
> > > > > ie. inhumation for his own men (those of consequence),
> > > > > cremation for everyone else, like a dictator from the
> > > > > steppes would do, if he intended to stay.
> > > > >
> > > > > GK: Your interpretation seems to be in conflict with the
> > > > > evidence at Old Uppsala:
> > > > >
> > > > > Cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamla_Uppsala#Archaeology
> > > > >
> > > > > *****
> > > > >
> > > > (TP)http://omacl.org/Heimskringla/ynglinga.html
> > > ****GK: Cut for economy, since none of this has any relevance
> > > to the fact that Swedish kings were cremated at Old Uppsala in
> > > the 6th century. According to your latest thesis, they must
> > > have been "men of no consequence" (:=)))... The answer, of
> > > course, is that you have misunderstood your source.
> >
> > The answer is that you are talking through your hat.
> > http://tinyurl.com/kqsscf
> >
> > > To state that a mound is erected does not imply that this is
> > > done over an inhumation.
> >
> > Nor that it is done over a cremation.
> >
> > > Whatever Odin was, he was no Yazig dictator from the
> > > steppes.****
> >
> > That remains to be seen.
> >
> > The case of Sweden is special. Sweden housed two powers then:
> > Götar
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6tar
> > which I see as the original inhabitants, cf.
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6tar#Jutish_hypothesis
> > (the linguistic objections are invalid if the Götar/Goths/Jutar
> > were not originally Germanic-speakers) and Svear,
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svear
> > which I see as the intruders.
> >
> > 'According to early sources, such as the Norse sagas, and
> > especially Heimskringla, the Swedes were a powerful tribe whose
> > kings claimed descendence from the god Freyr'
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freyr
> > 'In the Icelandic books the Poetic Edda and the Prose Edda, Freyr
> > is presented as one of the Vanir, the son of the sea god Njörðr,
> > brother of the goddess Freyja.'
> >
> > which means they would not necessarily have followed Odin (Æsir)
> > custom at Old Uppsala.
> >
> >
> > Torsten
>
> ****GK: (From James Burnham):
>
> "An ideologue--one who thinks ideologically- can't
> lose. He can't lose because his answer, his
> interpretation and his attitude have been determined
> in advance of the particular experience or
> observation. They are derived from the ideology and
> are not subject to the facts. There is no possible
> argument, observation or experiment that could
> disprove a firm ideological belief for the very simple
> reason that an ideologue will not accept any argument,
> observation or experiment as constituting disproof.
> It is a characteristic of ideological thinking,
> whatever the given ideology, that it cannot be refuted
> by logical analysis or empirical evidence. Actually,
> the internal logical structure of a developed ideology
> is usually quite good anyway, rather like the logical
> structure of paranoiac obsessions, which ideologies
> resemble in other ways also; and when a logical gap
> appears-- as happened to liberalism in the doctrinal
> shift from limited to welfare state-- sufficient
> ingenuity can always patch it up again, as`we duly
> noted. The ideology is a way of interpreting the
> world, an attitude toward the world and a method for
> dealing with the world. So long as I adhere faithfully
> to the ideology there is no specific happening, no
> observation or experiment that can unmistakably
> contradict it. I can always adjust my categories and
> my attitude to allow for whatever it is that happens
> or that I observe; if necessary I can shut my eyes."
>
> Torsten is a Snorrist ideologue. His responses
> above are an excellent example of his "reasoning". Which can
> obviously go on forever. To (badly) paraphrase Hobbes: Torsten's
> current "argumentation" is nothing but the ghost of his previous
> Snorrist elucubrations "sitting crowned on the grave thereof."

Is your false claim that Scandinavia used cremation exclusively an argument, an observations or an experiment?

I disabuse you of your ignorance of funeral types in Scandinavia after a 30 second Google search and then I'm an ideologue?

More here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Uppsala
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_at_Uppsala

'In Gesta Hammaburgensis ecclesiae pontificum, Adam of Bremen provides a description of the temple. Adam records that a "very famous temple called Ubsola" exists in a town close to Sigtuna. Adam details that the temple is "adorned with gold" and that the people there worship statues of three specific gods that sit on a triple throne. Thor, whom Adam refers to as "the mightiest", sits in the central throne, while Wodan (Odin) and Fricco (Freyr) are seated on the thrones to the sides of him.'

Wodan of the Æsir on one side, Freyr of the Vnir on the other, and Thor in the middle. One might guess that there has been some sort of syncretism.


Torsten