Re: Belgs

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Arnaud Fournet" <fournet.arnaud@>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@>
> >
> > >
> > > Now the interesting part is the observation that the Bolg- and
> > > Volg- areas are disjoint, which is this case has led some
> > > researchers to postulate a FU substrate. This is interesting
> > > because we earlier discussed the possibility of a b-/v-
> > > alternation as a diagnostic of Venetic presence
> > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/59384
> > > etc
> > > and note a similar v-/b- alternation in the Polish instances of
> > > the 'southern foreigner' word
> > > http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsche
> >
> > =========
> > It's difficult to understand how a FU substrate could explain b/v.
> >
> > If I understood your theory about Venetic,
> > this languagee is supposed to have occupied much of Central Europe
> > _before_ Italic+Celtic intruded in that area.
>
> The interesting (*very*!) thing is that if the Finno-Ugric volg-,
> Venetic bolg-, Germanic balg- words are in fact the result of
> successive layers of new languages covering the same area, then the
> coastal stretch from (Volga to) Eastern Prussia to England was once
> Uralic-, later the western part Venetic-speaking.
>
> Appellative occurrences of volg-
> Uralic
> http://tinyurl.com/a7fptz
> Baltic
> http://tinyurl.com/8kyas5
> Slavic
> http://tinyurl.com/9qkdx4
> 'Echt' Germanic
> http://tinyurl.com/8kr6lm
> 'Nostratic'
> http://tinyurl.com/8gq2h3
>
> It seems the sense was "navigable channel, with strong current" vel
> sim. (hence FW, ? FU walke 'weiß, hell, leuchtend; leuchten' ?)
>
> UEW.
> 'walka- 'hinabsteigen, hinabgehen' FU
> Finn. valka, valkama 'Furt, Landungsplatz, Überfahrtsort',
> valka- 'gjuta, flöda; gießen, fließen';
> est. valgu- 'herabfließen, strömen, rinnen, fließend herabsinken, sich
> senken',
> valgma 'Stelle am Ufer, wo die Böte [o: Boote] ans Land gezogen werden' |
> lapp.
> N vuol'ge- -lg- 'go (leave), start, depart (on a journey), betake
> oneself (to)',
> L vuol'ke:- 'sich fort-, wegbegeben, abfahren, abreisen',
> K (1890) T vi,lke-, Kld. vu:,lke-, Not. vuo,ke-, A vu,lke- 'sich
> begeben; zukommen (Kld.)' |
> mord. E M valgo- 'herab-, hinabsteigen, untergehen (v. Gestirnen);
> sich niederlassen, sich setzen (v. Vögeln)' |
> tscher. KB wale-, U B wole- 'herabsteigen, herunterklettern' |
> ostj. (214)
> V waG&l- 'herabsinken',
> Vj. wiG&l-'herabsteigen',
> DN wax&t- 'sich senken, herabgleiten',
> DT wex&t- 'herabsinken',
> O ox&l- 'herabsteigen (von einem Baum, einem Hügel), an das Ufer,
> den Fluß gehen' |
> wog. (...)
> TJ wejl- 'hinabsteigen, sich hinunterlassen', (...)
> KO P wojl-,
> LO wa:Gl- 'laskeutua; hinab-, herab-, hinunter-, heruntersteigen' |
> ung. vál- (altung., dial. váll-) 'sich von jm scheiden, trennen; zu
> einer S. werden, sich in etw. verwandeln; (veralt.) sein, sich
> finden', választ- 'wählen, erwählen; (altung.) trennen', válasz
> (veralt. választ) 'Antwort; (veralt.) Scheidung, Trennen,
> Zwischenraum, Abstand; (veralt.) Erfolg; (veralt.) Wahl; (veralt.)
> Bericht, Unterscheidung'.
>
> Die ostj. interdìalektalen Vokalentsprechungen beruhen auf dem
> Vokalwechsel *a ~ *i. Ung. l < ll läßt sich aus *ly < *lk erklären.
> Aus den Bedeutungen 'Scheidung, Trennen usw.' von ung. válasz
> (veralt. választ) ist die Bedeutung 'wählen' von választ- und
> eventuell die Bedeutung 'Antwort' von válasz zu erklären; vgl. dazu
> auch ung. köz 'Zwischenraum, Abstand' <~ közöl- 'mitteilen'.'

De Vries:
'velja schw. V. 'wählen',
nisl. fär. norw. velja, nschw. välja, ndä. vælge.
-> me. walen (Björkman 257 mit a aus subst. val),
ne. dial. schott. wale (Flom 70);

> shetl. wäil (Jakobson 991);
> finn. valin, valitsen, ostn. weps. valitsen. (Thomson 2, 227);
> lpN. valjljit (Qvigstad 342).

— got. waljan, as. wellian, ahd. wellen. —
- ai. varáyati 'wählen',
asl. voliti 'wollen, wählen'.
Vgl. val 1, valnir, vilja, vo,l und Vo,lsungr.'

As is standard practice with everything sufficently important, de Vries assumes borrowing Gmc. -> Baltic Finnic. He leaves out the Hungarian data, which wouldn't fit into this practice. I think we must assume loan from Finno-Ugric or some substrate to it.

>
>
> The Vasmer quote for Slavic in German instead:
> 'vológa 'Feuchtigkeit, Flüssigkeit, flüssiges Fett als Zutat', auch
> 'Speise' (Kirs^a Danilov), 'gekochtes Rindfleisch, Fisch und andere
> Zutaten zur Kohlsuppe; gekochte, flüssige Nahrung' Arch. (Podv.),
> Olon, (Kulik.),
> ukr. vol/óha 'fette Feuchtigkeit',
> aruss. vologa 'Suppe, Nahrung' u. a. Domostroj K.45 ff.,
> abulg. vlaga notía (Supr.),
> bulg. vlága, skr. vl`àga, sloven. vlága, c^ech. vláha, slk. vlaha,
> osorb. wl/óha. nsorb. wl/oga. ||
> Ablaut: vólgkij, volglyj, vólgnutI, Vólga.
> Urverwandt:
> lit. válgyti, vìlgyti 'anfeuchten',
> lett. valgs 'feucht', ve,lgs 'Feuchtigkeit, feucht', pavalgà 'Zutat,
> Zukost',
> ahd. welc 'feucht, welk', wolkan 'Wolke',
> maked. FlN. Ólganos,
> aind. vr.janí: 'Wolke',
> ferner ir. folc 'Wasserflut', folcaim 'wasche',...'

Notice Russ. volok:

'Nevertheless, it was not only military but also trade routes that bypassed the Balts until the turn of the twelfth and thirteenth centuries. They only took a small share of the trade that flowered in the tenth century which was maintained by the Arabs and the Jews between Scandinavia and southern Europe. The South could only be reached via waterways. Two major roads crossed Eastern Europe in a north-south direction. One connected the Baltic Sea with the Adriatic, it began in the western Baltic and went along the Elbe from the Jutland peninsula. The Prussians could have accessed that route with the help of the now almost extinct (except for the Kashubs) Western-Slavic tribes (the Pomorans, the Velet-Rugians, the Obodrits, and further to the west the Polabians) who lived on the coast. Yet, they did not. There is very little evidence of trade on this route mainly because of the swamps and marshland which made it impossible to travel from east to west along the shores, and also because the rivers there were not transcontinental (Jaz.dz.ewski 1981, 633).
The other route went through the territories of the eastern Slavic peoples. The Balts, living between the two routes, remained isolated (Niederle 1911/III, 48). This picture is underpinned by infrequent archaeological finds, as well as by scarce references to the southern coast of the Baltic Sea in the runes of the tenth to twelfth centuries (Mel'nikova 1977, 36). The River Nemunas, springing from the middle of the mainland, was not part of this second route because there was no waterway from there onwards to the south (L/owmian´ski 1957, 80).13 However, there was a watercourse from the Daugava, because its source is close to where three other rivers: the Dnieper, the Volga, and the Lovat spring. Between any of these four rivers ships or boats could be pulled through or carried across on carts on the so-called voloks (< Russian voloch 'to pull') which were deep tracks in constructed ditches (Villages sprung up along the voloks where the inhabitants (the Volochans) had continuous work in loading and shifting cargo, towing, rope production, trade, and so on (Alekseyev 1966, 89)).'

Vasmer:
'volok
1. 'Landenge zwischen zwei Flüssen, über die die Boote geschleppt werden müssen'.
2.'Dickicht, aus dem das gefällte Holz nur auf Schleifen herausgeschafft wird',
bulg. vlak 'Fischnetz',
skr. vlâk G. vlâka, dass.,
sloven. vlâk, c^ech. vlak, poln. wl/ok 'Zugnetz',
osorb. wl/oka 'Schleppe, Pflugschleppe, Zuggarn'.
Zu volokú.
|| Urverw.:
lit. ãpvalkas 'Anzug, Oberleder der Stiefel',
ùz^valkas 'Bettenüberzug',
lett. valks 'Wasserabzug, Zugwind',
uzvalks 'Überrock ',
lett. valka 'Zugwind',
griech. holkós 'Zug',
lat. sulcus,
s. Trautmann BS1. 350, Meillet Études 223ff. Torbiörnsson LM. 1,104, Mladenow 70, M.-Endz. 4,455.
...
volokú, volóc^I 'schleppe, ziehe',
ukr. vol/okú, vol/oc^ý,
wruss. vol/okú, vol/okc´í,
aruss. voloku, voloc^i,
abulg. vle^ko,, vle^s^ti, helko: (Supr.),
bulg. vle^ká,
skr. vúc´i, vúc^êm,
sloven. vléc^em, vl/éc^i,
c^ech. vl/eku, vlec´i,
slk. vlec^iem, vliect´,
osorb. wleku, wlec,
nsorb. (w)lac,
urslav. *velko,,
s. Torbiömsson LM. 1,103.
|| Urverw.:
lit. velkù, vil~kti, 'ziehe, schleppe',
lett. v`e,lku, vìlkt dass.,
avest. var&k-´ ziehen, schleppen',
fra:varc^aiti 'schleppt weg',
griech. helko: 'ziehe',
lat. sulcus 'Furche',
sulco, -a:re 'pflüge',
alb. hel'k', hek' 'ziehe, reiße ab' aus *solkeyo:-, s. Walde2 754, Trautmann BS1.349, M.-Endz. 4,592, Specht KZ. 66,25ff.
Dazu auch
griech. au~laks 'Furche', euláka 'Pflug' nach Solmsen Unters, gr. Lautl. 142 und 168.'

cf.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/64012


And the standard Gmc and IE etymologies for English 'walk' don't look to good either. I wonder ...


Torsten