--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@> wrote:
> >
> > On 2008-02-11 09:54, tgpedersen wrote:
> >
> > > The Germanic words for "rice" clearly have no initial/w/ either.
> > > Therefore they shouldn't be confused with all those pre-IA
> > > *vrijhi-, Pashtu wriZE, Greek o'ryza, o'ryzon etc?
> >
> > We know when and how this word found its way into English etc.,
> > and how to account for its shape, including the loss of the
> > original initial. What I'm arguing against is, in the first
> > place, the reconstruction of an IE *wrugHjo- for 'rye', as
> > proposed by Pokorny. The _only_ reason why he posits an initial
> > *w is the existence of Thrac. briza. He doesn't offer any
> > comments on the absence of *w- in Germanic. A wanderwort like
> > *wrij^Hi- might of course explain the form (but not the meaning!)
> > of the Thracian word quite nicely, but it wouldn't work so well
> > for Balto-Slavic and Germanic (to get *rugHi- one would have to
> > admit an irregular treatment of both the initial cluster and the
> > vowel, and if the word got into Europe via
> > the Iranian languages, why do we have a reflex of *gH, not *g^H,
> > in Balto-Slavic?). There's also a semantic problem: why 'rice'
> > --> > 'rye'? Rye is not a recent import into Eastern and Central
> > Europe. It's been widely cultivated here at least since the
> > Bronze Age as one of the main crops and THE bread cereal (not to
> > mention vodka :)). Why borrow a word for it from peoples who did
> > not cultivate rye at all? I find it safer to assume, until proven
> > otherwise, that *rugHi-/*rugHjo- is a separate term.
>
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/30337
> And now I can blame the geminated Rogge etc on NWBlock/Chattic etc.
>
> Here's a proposal for the semantic development:
> The *(w)rugHjo- word is taken over as the name of 'cerral', ie *the*
> cereal, there wasn't any other in these parts: a mixture of wheat
> and rye. Someone succeeds in getting the rye out of the crop, and
> that new improved crop is called with a name derived from *k^weit-
> "white". The old crop keeps the old name, but some day someone
> succeeds in isolating rye in that too, which is how it's been since.
Gamkrelidze & Ivanov
Indo-European and the Indo-Europeans
pp 566-567
'
4.2.3. Wheat
4.2.3.1. The Indo-European term for wheat
The cultivation of wheat (Triticum L.) is as old as that of barley. There are three ancient varieties: diploid (with seven pairs of chromosomes), with a center of domestication in southeastern Turkey, and two tetraploid types (with fourteen pairs of chromosomes), one of which is traced to Palestine and/or southeastern Turkey and the other (Triticum timopheevi) to the territory of modern Georgia (Harlan 1976:91, Lisicyna 1978:99ff.). The area where wheat was first domesticated partially coincides with the ancient range of barley.
A Proto-Indo-European stem with the original meaning 'wheat' can be reconstructed as *pHu:r-:
Gk. pu:rós 'grain of wheat; wheat',
Hom. puroí 'wheat',
púrnon 'bread", cf.
Skt. pu:ra- 'type of pastry';
Lith. pu:rai~ (pl.) 'winter wheat',
Latv. pur,i id.,
OPruss. pure 'bromegrass' (a weed that grows in grain fields);
OChSl. pyro 'spelt; millet',
Serbo-Cr. p`ìr 'spelt',
Slovene pîr 'spelt',
Russ. pyrej';
OE fyrs 'couch grass'.
In Germanic and Old Prussian, and partially in Slavic, there is a semantic shift whereby the word comes to denote weeds that grow together with wheat, and the meaning 'wheat' is conveyed by neologisms. In Germanic a new word connected with the white color of wheat appears: Goth. hwaiteis, OE hwæ:te (Engl. wheat), OHG weizzi (Ger. Weizen), OIcel. hveiti. In Slavic and Old Prussian the new term is a derivative of a verb meaning 'pound', 'grind',
OCS pIs^enica,
Russ. ps^enica beside
OPruss. sompisinis 'bread made of coarse ground flour',
Skt. pis.t.ám 'flour',
pis.t.á- 'pounded';
cf. also
Lat. tri:ticum 'wheat' beside
tero: 'pound; mill, grind'.'
on tri:ticum, cf. Proto-Georgian-Zan *trt- 'to tremble':
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/64077
on Slavic pIs- "pound, grind", consider this for source:
Klimov
Etymological Dictionary of the Kartvelian languages
pp. 97-99
'CK *pekw- : pkw- 'to grind':
Georg. pkv- 'to grind';
Megr. k(v)-,
Laz mk(v)-;
Svan [pek-].
Verb stem occurring in Old Georgian (pkviden pkvilsa... '(they) were grinding flour...' Lk. 18.35; action noun pkva-). In the Zan forms (cf. notion noun Megr. kuala-, Laz o-mk-u) a simplification of the consonant cluster usually takes place although the Laz one may have an inorganic m. In Svan the stem may be discerned in the substantive pek- 'flour'. A Georgian-Zan derivative *pkw-il- may be posited.
...
CK *pes^- : ps^- 'to dehisce (noisily, with a crack)':
Georg. [ps^-] 'to husk';
Megr. pas^k-, pes^k-; 'to dehisce, burst (noisily)';
Svan pes^k-: ps^g- 'to become untied; to open (noisily)'.
Onomatopoeic verb stem attested in the modern Georgian action noun (gamo)ps^-vn-a 'to husk' (at present it means also 'to crumble'). Cf. also the Megrelian derivatives pes^kvere- 'swelled, plump' and pes^kvinia- 'popcorn', where the stem vocalism is adjusted in conformity with a word-forming model. The Svan action nouns are li-pes^g 'to become untied' and li-ps^g-e 'to open (a vessel noisily)'.
...
GZ *pkw-il- 'ground, flour':
Georg. pkvil- 'flour';
Megr. k(v)ir-;
Laz (m)ki(r)-, (m)kver-, (m)pkver-.
Deverbative formation. It is a historical past participle in -il derived from the verbal stem *[pekw-] : pkw- 'to grind'. The stem is amply attested in Old Georgian (s^ehrto igi pkvilsa... '(she) added it into flour...' Mt. 13.33). Cf. also Georgian dialectal variants kvil-, kpil-, kbil- (G.lont.i 1984: 564, 581). In the Zan forms the original consonant cluster is reduced. Besides the regular reflex of the participial suffix a later form in -er is also available here. The similar Svan pek- shows a different word-formation type.
...
CK(?) *ps^w-en- : ps^w-n- 'to crumble, make friable':
Georg. ps^ven- : ps^vn- 'to crumble';
Svan purs^gwi:n- 'to crumble, make friable'.
Apparently a Common Kartvelian verb stem. Its Old Georgian continuant may be extracted from the form of the past participle na-ps^uen- 'crumb'. In modern Georgian there is also its suffixal derivative ps^vn-et.- with the same meaning. A Zan correspondence apparently is lacking. r of the Svan cognate must have been inserted at a later time. The sequence s^g of the intervocalic consonant cluster (instead of the expected sg) needs an explanation. In this connection the question arises of the relation of this stem to Common Kartvelian *pes^- : *ps^.'
UEW
peksä- 'schlagen' U
Finn.
pieksä- 'mit Ruten schlagen, prügeln, bläuen',
piekse- 'peitschen, geißeln, einem die Rute geben, schlagen';
est. peksa- 'schlagen, züchtigen, prügeln, dreschen; (intr.) klopfen, schlagen' |
mord. E pivse-, pivce-, M pikse- 'schlagen, prügeln (M);
dreschen (E)' |
wotj.
S pos- 'durch Knittern und Drücken etw. weich machen',
ku pos- 'gerben' (ku 'Haut, Fell') |
syrj. Lu. P pes- 'schlagen, klopfen',
S kuc´ik pes- 'Leder reiben (aufweichen)' (kuc´ik 'Haut, Fell'),
PO pe:s- 'prügeln' ||
sam.
jur. (388) O pid´i:l- 'reiben (Fell oder Kleidungsstücke aus Fell weich)';
jen. Ch. fi?á-, B fi?e- 'schaben, gerben';
twg. fede?á- 'eine Rentierhaut mit dem Gerbeisen streichen';
selk. (Donn., mitg. Janh., SW 126) petku- 'gerben';
kam. phi?- 'gerben (Häute bereiten)'.
Jur. i:l ist ein Verbalsuffix.
Finn. ie ( < *e:) ist sekundär (vgl. est. peksa- < *peksä-).
Im Wotj. und in den sam. Sprachen wurde es zum Fachausdruck der Lederbearbeitung. Vgl. noch
wotj. ku pos- 'gerben',
syrj. kuc´ik pes- 'Leder reiben (aufweichen)'.
Mark (ÕESA 1931:326) hat folgende Wörter hierher gestellt:
ostj. (Ahlqv.) N paGillem, paillem 'hämmern, schmieden',
paitlem 'zu Boden werfen, fallen lassen, verlieren',
paitta xa:r 'Dreschplatz';
wog. (Ahlqv.) puxtiltam' schmieden, hammern',
puxtil-koat 'Zange'.
Sie können jedoch wegen lautlichen und semantischen Schwierigkeiten nicht hierbei gestellt werden.
Juhász (NyK 47:463) hat das finn. und das mord. Wort irrtümlich zu ung. *fiu (lies: fiü) 'funiculus, modus agri, mensura terrae; Seil' usw. gestellt (zum Ung. s. *pikse 'Seil, Strick'
Collinder
'fi piekse-, pieksä-
whip, lash; thrash, flog; beat, curry, dress (a hide) |
mdE pivsë- thresh;
M piksõ- beat, thrash |
vty posy- rub; squeeze to pieces;
ku p. curry, dress, a hide |
zr pes- beat, thrash; drive (a nail into ...); beat (washing);
hu p. curry, dress, a hide ||
yr
pidel- curry, dress, moisten (a hide);
piderc a broad, blunt dressing iron for moistening hides |
tv
feda`a dressing iron for moistening hides;
fede`a- rub a reindeer hide with a dressing iron |
ynH firo`o, B fido`o dressing iron (for hides);
fi`e-, fi`a- dress (a hide) |
km pi- dress hides.'
Seems like there is a kentum/satem division within Kartvelian itself Or, considering the Uralic forms, maybe the original was *pksw-?
Torsten