--- In cybalist@... s.com, "Anders R. Joergensen" <ollga_loudec@ ...> wrote:
>
>
> --- In cybalist@... s.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@> wrote:
> >
> > On 2009-06-07 07:34, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> >
> > > <Ramps>, <ramp>, and <ram> are variant developments of OE
> > > <hramsa> 'onion, garlic'; in Great Britain they refer to
> > > Allium ursinum (wild garlic, bear's garlic), in the U.S. to
> > > Allium tricoccum (wild leek). The OED says that <ramps> is
> > > regional on both sides of the Pond: northern, Scottish, and
> > > Irish on the Right, east Midland and southeastern on the
> > > Left. <Ramsons>, from the same source, seems to be a
> > > current, non-dialect term for the Allium ursinum.
> >
> > During the recent Copenhagen conference I found, to my delight,
> > that the Danes still ate ramsons (ramsløg) (it used to be
> > important in Polish folk medicine -- I know that from my
> > grandmother, now in her 90s).
> > Handbook of the history of English should quote the word as an
> > interesting surviving example of a weak-noun plural in OE -an
> > reanalysed as a singular, which in turn makes <ramsons> a nice
> > example of a historically double plural, like <kine> or
> > <children>. Had it developed regularly, we would have something
> > like sg. <rams>, pl. <ramsen> today.
> > It's clear that some dialects have reanalysed <rams> as pl.
> > <ram#s> and back-formed sg. <ram> (like <pea, peas> replacing
> > <peas, peasen>), which makes it an interesting example of... etc.
> >
> > A very singular collection of plurals for one and the same plant.
> >
> For those who might be interested, the Germanic "wild garlic" word
> somehow made it into Breton, where we find a rare _ramz_ 'ail
> sauvage'. I'm not sure of the exact route. I suppose it could come
> from Old or Middle English or later (there was until recently a lot
> of onion-related contact between Britanny and England), from Old
> Norse or maybe even from Franconian.
Pokorny
(kerem-), krem- (: krom-) und kerm- (bes. mit s-Formans)
1. ,Zwiebel- und Knoblaucharten' ;
2. ,Eberesche u. dgl.';
Anlaut k-, vereinzelt k^-,
Gr. krémuon Hes., sonst (durch Assimil. daraus)
krómuon ,Zwiebelart' (*kremusom);
mir. crim, Gen. crema, cymr. (reduktionsstufig) craf ,Knoblauch':
ags. hramsan, engl. ramsons ,Waldknoblauch' ,
norw. schwed. dän. rams ds.,
mnd. ramese, remese ds.,
ahd. ramusia, nhd. (bair.) rams ,ds.' (Allium ursinum L.);
lit. kermùs^e. f. ,wilder Knoblauch';
slav. *c^ermUs^a, *c^ermucha in
russ. c^erems^á, c^eremíca, c^erëmus^ka ,Bärenlauch, Allium ursinum',
poln. trzemucha ds.,
mit Pal. skr. sr`ìjemus´ m., -s´a f. und
sr`ìjemuz^, -z^a ,Art wildwachsendes Gemüse';
dazu die Bezeichnung des ,Prunus padus'
(ebenfalls starkriechende Pflanze);
lit. s^ermùks^nis m. s^ermùks^le., s^ermùks^ne. f. ,Eberesche',
lett. se:,rmu:kslis usw. ds.,
mit anderer Gutturalreihe lett. ce:rmauksis usw., ds.;
russ. c^erëmcha, c^erëma, c^erëmucha
,Faulbaum, Ahlkirsche, Prunus padus',
klr. c^erém-cha, -ucha ds.,
sloven. c^rê,m-ha, -sa (und mit Palatal) srê,m-s^a, -sa ds.,
poln. trzemcha, c^ech. tr^emcha, heute str^emcha ds.,
vielleicht hierher der venet. ON Cremo:na.
UEW
'koc´me (kac´me) 'zwiebelartige Pflanze' FU
Wotj.
S kumiz 'Knoblauch; allium sativum',
(URS) kumiz´ 'dikij c^esnok'
[syrj.
(Wied.) P komi3´ 'Lauch; Allium',
PO ku:mic´ 'pero luka, zelenyj luk' |
wog.
(Kann.: FUF 17: 232) P kos´&m, LO xo:s´man
'eine zwiebelartige wildwachsende Pflanze, deren Stengel und Wurzel
als Suppenwürze gebraucht werden; Zwiebel' |
ung. hagyma (dial. hajma) 'Zwiebel, Lauch',
fokhagyma 'Knoblauch',
vöröshagyma 'Zwiebel'.
Wog. an und vermutlich ung. a sind Ableitungssuffixe.
Im urpermischen Vorbild der permischen Wörter ist eine Metathese
anzunehmen: *ko3´im > > wotj. kumiz´, syrj. komi3´.
Das von Radanovics (NyK 61: 360) hierher gestellte
ostj. (Reg.) kass, kas (PB xas´) 'Zwiebel'
gehört nicht hierher, sondern es ist zusammen mit
ostj. (342) Trj. kås 'eine weiße Wasserpflanze' usw.
eine Entsprechung von
wog. (Kann. Liim: MSFOu. 101 . 387) So. xus
'eine Knollenpflanze; Drachenwurz; Calla palustris'.'
Collinder
'hu
hagyma onion, Allium (cepa etc.);
fokhagyma garlic, Allium sativum |
[? vty kumyz´ garlic |
zr komi3´ onion] |
vg kos´s´&m etc.
Metathesis seems to have taken place in Permian.'
...
If we assume Permian represents the original within FU and that the metathesis was the other way around (ie. took place in Ugrian) then we might have *kroms- > *koms- -> Ugrian *kosm-
Is *kroms- a relative of (NWBlock) Eng. 'cress'?
Torsten
Cress, which my hillbilly relatives call, "greasy grass" < "cressy grass" is another herb used in Appalachian cooking
In Spanish, it's call berros (I've only heard it in the plural, but I suppose one is a berro), which, I've read, is from Celtic