From: tgpedersen
Message: 64064
Date: 2009-06-08
>Heinrich Werner
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Anders R. Joergensen" <ollga_loudec@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@> wrote:
> > >
> > > On 2009-06-07 07:34, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> > >
> > > > <Ramps>, <ramp>, and <ram> are variant developments of OE
> > > > <hramsa> 'onion, garlic'; in Great Britain they refer to
> > > > Allium ursinum (wild garlic, bear's garlic), in the U.S. to
> > > > Allium tricoccum (wild leek). The OED says that <ramps> is
> > > > regional on both sides of the Pond: northern, Scottish, and
> > > > Irish on the Right, east Midland and southeastern on the
> > > > Left. <Ramsons>, from the same source, seems to be a
> > > > current, non-dialect term for the Allium ursinum.
> > >
> > > During the recent Copenhagen conference I found, to my delight,
> > > that the Danes still ate ramsons (ramsløg) (it used to be
> > > important in Polish folk medicine -- I know that from my
> > > grandmother, now in her 90s).
> > > Handbook of the history of English should quote the word as an
> > > interesting surviving example of a weak-noun plural in OE -an
> > > reanalysed as a singular, which in turn makes <ramsons> a nice
> > > example of a historically double plural, like <kine> or
> > > <children>. Had it developed regularly, we would have something
> > > like sg. <rams>, pl. <ramsen> today.
> > > It's clear that some dialects have reanalysed <rams> as pl.
> > > <ram#s> and back-formed sg. <ram> (like <pea, peas> replacing
> > > <peas, peasen>), which makes it an interesting example of... etc.
> > >
> > > A very singular collection of plurals for one and the same plant.
> > >
>
> > For those who might be interested, the Germanic "wild garlic" word
> > somehow made it into Breton, where we find a rare _ramz_ 'ail
> > sauvage'. I'm not sure of the exact route. I suppose it could come
> > from Old or Middle English or later (there was until recently a lot
> > of onion-related contact between Britanny and England), from Old
> > Norse or maybe even from Franconian.
>
> Pokorny
>
> (kerem-), krem- (: krom-) und kerm- (bes. mit s-Formans)
> 1. ,Zwiebel- und Knoblaucharten';
> 2. ,Eberesche u. dgl.';
> Anlaut k-, vereinzelt k^-,
>
> Gr. krémuon Hes., sonst (durch Assimil. daraus)
> krómuon ,Zwiebelart' (*kremusom);
>
> mir. crim, Gen. crema, cymr. (reduktionsstufig) craf ,Knoblauch':
>
> ags. hramsan, engl. ramsons ,Waldknoblauch',
> norw. schwed. dän. rams ds.,
> mnd. ramese, remese ds.,
> ahd. ramusia, nhd. (bair.) rams ,ds.' (Allium ursinum L.);
>
> lit. kermùs^e. f. ,wilder Knoblauch';
>
> slav. *c^ermUs^a, *c^ermucha in
> russ. c^erems^á, c^eremíca, c^erëmus^ka ,Bärenlauch, Allium ursinum',
> poln. trzemucha ds.,
> mit Pal. skr. sr`ìjemus´ m., -s´a f. und
> sr`ìjemuz^, -z^a ,Art wildwachsendes Gemüse';
> dazu die Bezeichnung des ,Prunus padus'
> (ebenfalls starkriechende Pflanze);
>
> lit. s^ermùks^nis m. s^ermùks^le., s^ermùks^ne. f. ,Eberesche',
> lett. se:,rmu:kslis usw. ds.,
> mit anderer Gutturalreihe lett. ce:rmauksis usw., ds.;
>
> russ. c^erëmcha, c^erëma, c^erëmucha
> ,Faulbaum, Ahlkirsche, Prunus padus',
> klr. c^erém-cha, -ucha ds.,
> sloven. c^rê,m-ha, -sa (und mit Palatal) srê,m-s^a, -sa ds.,
> poln. trzemcha, c^ech. tr^emcha, heute str^emcha ds.,
>
> vielleicht hierher der venet. ON Cremo:na.
>
>
>
> UEW
> 'koc´me (kac´me) 'zwiebelartige Pflanze' FU
> Wotj.
> S kumiz 'Knoblauch; allium sativum',
> (URS) kumiz´ 'dikij c^esnok'
> [syrj.
> (Wied.) P komi3´ 'Lauch; Allium',
> PO ku:mic´ 'pero luka, zelenyj luk' |
>
> wog.
> (Kann.: FUF 17: 232) P kos´&m, LO xo:s´man
> 'eine zwiebelartige wildwachsende Pflanze, deren Stengel und Wurzel
> als Suppenwürze gebraucht werden; Zwiebel' |
>
> ung. hagyma (dial. hajma) 'Zwiebel, Lauch',
> fokhagyma 'Knoblauch',
> vöröshagyma 'Zwiebel'.
>
>
> Wog. an und vermutlich ung. a sind Ableitungssuffixe.
>
> Im urpermischen Vorbild der permischen Wörter ist eine Metathese
> anzunehmen: *ko3´im > > wotj. kumiz´, syrj. komi3´.
>
> Das von Radanovics (NyK 61: 360) hierher gestellte
> ostj. (Reg.) kass, kas (PB xas´) 'Zwiebel'
> gehört nicht hierher, sondern es ist zusammen mit
> ostj. (342) Trj. kås 'eine weiße Wasserpflanze' usw.
> eine Entsprechung von
> wog. (Kann. Liim: MSFOu. 101 . 387) So. xus
> 'eine Knollenpflanze; Drachenwurz; Calla palustris'.'
>
>
> Collinder
> 'hu
> hagyma onion, Allium (cepa etc.);
> fokhagyma garlic, Allium sativum |
>
> [? vty kumyz´ garlic |
>
> zr komi3´ onion] |
>
> vg kos´s´&m etc.
>
>
> Metathesis seems to have taken place in Permian.'
>
> ...
>
>
> If we assume Permian represents the original within FU and that the metathesis was the other way around (ie. took place in Ugrian) then we might have *kroms- > *koms- -> Ugrian *kosm-
>
>
> Is *kroms- a relative of (NWBlock) Eng. 'cress'?