Re: More on dump etc.

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Peter P" <roskis@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Peter P" <roskis@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 5.
> > > > umpe 'closed, closed state' FP
> > > > ?[ Finn. umpi 'closed state':
> > > > ummessa silmin, silmät ummessa 'with closed eyes',
> > > > tie on ummessa 'the road is snowed under';
> > > > Estonian umbe 'closed, inaccessible, unbroken (of road),
> > > > clogged, not ready, opaque, incomprehensible',
> > > > umb, umbes 'quite, completely, over and over' |
> > > >
> > >
> > > The SSA gives this origin for...
> > > umpi - enclosed
> > > ympäri - all around (lative case)
> > > ympyrä - hoop, ring,
> > >
> > > < germ. *umbi
> > >
> > > Peter P
> > >
> >
> > Another Finnish word that belongs here is ymmärtää - to understand,
> > that is to enclose an idea in one's mind. Interstingly Häkkinen
> > mentions that some have argued unconvincingly for the Germanic
> > origin, and she favours 'unkown' as the best origin of the above
> > words.
>
> The one thing that strikes me about the above list is the seeming umlaut, ie backwards-working vowel harmony, whereas, AFAIK, FU vowel harmony is exclusively forwards-working, or am I mistaken?
>
> > So I guess another point for Torsten.
>
> Oh nice! I'll put the star in my little book.
>
>
> Torsten
>

The rules of vowel harmony are triggered by the first vowel. There is no backwards vowel harmony.

I think you would like to make the case that u/y umlaut is rare and possibly predates FU in Northern Europe. I can't think of another example at a beginning of a word. There aren't that many words that begin with /y/ in Finnish /ü/ in Estonian anyway.

So what's needed is evidence. If it were easy to come by the authors of etymological dictionaries could take a less conservative stance in classifying the 5 words you identified. None seem to have a clear etymology.

Peter P