From: tgpedersen
Message: 63679
Date: 2009-03-28
--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Anatoly Guzaev <anatoly_guzaev@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > AFAIK, Matasovic is a native speaker of Serbo-Croatian and I
> > wonder why he didn't mention the Serb.-Cr. udaranje "batting,
> > beating, throb, hitting, kicking" (Russ. udar 'strike). Also, it
> > seems that there is the Serb.-Cr. word tandaranje (noise, uproar)
> > which may perhaps be compared to English thunder.
> >
> > To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
> > From: xthanex@
> > Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 12:18:55 +0000
> > Subject: [tied] Re: Celtic Tanarus and Gmc Thunaraz
> >
> > Following up and rephrasing this...
> >
> >
> >
> > Way back in 1900, the antiquarian H. Munro Chadwick mentioned the
> > dedication in Chester, England, which is to "I.O. M. Tanaro".
> > Chadwick remarks about the other inscriptions to Taranus and
> > Taranucus. He also makes mention that Tanarus corresponds to
> > Thunuraz.
>
> > Watkins AHDIER and Pokorny both give the distinct PIE *(s)ten- as
> > the origin of PGmc Thunaraz and such terms as Thunder, Thor,
> > Donner, etc. Pokorny then gives the seperate PIE *tor- as the
> > origin of the Celtic taran/torann.
> >
> > Of course AHDIER only gives English roots and so no mention of an
> > etymology for the Celtic taran is made.
> >
> > On the other hand, in 'An etymological lexicon of Proto-Celtic' by
> > Matasovic, I found this entry:
> > Proto-Celtic: *torano- 'thunder' [Noun]
> > Old Irish: torann [o m and Æ' f] 'thunder, noise'
> > Middle Welsh: taran [f] '(peal of) thunder, thunderclap'
> > Middle Breton: taran (OBret.) gl. tonitru, MoBret. taran
> > Cornish: taran gl. tonitruum (OCo.), MCo. taran
> > Gaulish: Taranis [Theonym]
> >
> > Proto-Indo-European: *(s)ten-r-
> > Page in Pokorny: 1021
> > IE cognates: OHG donar, English thunder
> >
> > Notes: The Celtic forms are best explained by a
> > metathesis *tonaro- > *torano-, despite some doubts expressed by
> > LEIA (s. v.). The unmetathesized form is perhaps attested as the
> > OBrit. theonym Tanaro and in the old name of the river Po,
> > Tanarus 'thundering'.
> >
> > References: LEIA T-113, GPC III: 3447, Delamarre 290
> >
>
> > Thus Matasovic follows Pokorny and Watkins in saying that PIE
> > *(s)ten-r- is the origin of Thunder/Donner ; and yet Matasovic
> > disagrees with Pokorny by staing that the Celtic forms do not
> > derive from a distinct PIE root (*tor-) but rather from a
> > metathesis of *tonaro- > *torano-.
> >
> > On the other hand, the IE database of Nikolaev and Starostin,
> > gives Proto-IE: *taron- <PIH *-rH-> as the origin of BOTH
> > the Celtic Taran and the Gmc Thunr/Thunraz; as well as the
> > Hittite Tarhun and other derivatives.
> >
> > Any ideas on whether Taran and Thunder share a common IE root
> >
> > (whether that root be *taron- [per Nikolaev and Starostin] or
> > (s)tene- [per Matasovic] )?
>
> I like the idea of a metathesis, so I'll propose it for ODa
> thordyn, thorden, Da.,No. torden, OSw. þordyn, Sw tordön (DEO)
> "thunder", which will make it a cognate of Eng. thunder etc; the
> traditional explanation is as (the cognates of) Thor-din ("Thor
> noise"). We could propose original *tonr- -> *tondr- (with later
> epenthetic vowels, which would be unique in PGmc.(?)) -> tordn-
> (supported by popular etymology as Thor-din).
>
> The following has annoyed me for some time:
> Haandbog i danske stednavne
> 'THO:RI, mn. fsv. Thori.
> Maaske svagtböjet sideform til THO:RIR, fsv. Thorer, vn. órir (<
> órgeirr?). Dette Tho:rir findes i Sönder Taastrup, Idestrup s.
> Falster Sönder h. *1231 Thoristhorp syndræ, og maaske i Torslev s.
> Dronninglund h. Se reg. A: LEV 89.
> Om Nörre Taastrup se reg. B: TO:STI 1.
> Flere af de i det fölgende opförte navne er næppe alle sikre
> sammensætninger med Tho:ri, der ofte maa antages at være
> sammenfaldet med mn. THO:RTH, vn. þo:rdhr, gen. -ar og TO:KI.
>
> 1. Torup, Sandager s. Baag h. 1383 Todorp.
> Skov-Torup, Kongsted s. Fakse h. 1402 Tortropp, 1472 Skovdorp.
> Hammer-Torup, Hammer s. og h. *1346 Thoræthorp, 1596 Hammerstorp.
> Sötorup, Braaby s. Ringsted h. 1456 Tordrop.
> Taarup, Tavlov s. Elbo h. 1479 Torduph, 1532 Tordorp.
> Mange flere forekomster.
> Toreby s. Musse h. *1231 Thoræby. Se reg. A: BY 58.
> ANM. Toreby, Ryde s. Lolland Sönder h. *1429, 1473 Tornby.
> Se reg. C: TORN.
> I fölgende navne Torup og Taarup findes simplexordet TORP:
>
> 2. Torup, gde, Vrads s. og h. *1517 Thorrupmarck.
> Torup, Aggersborg s. Ö. Han h. 1468 Torp.
> Torup, Simested s. Rinds h. *1396 Totrup, 1466 Tharupp.
> Taarup, Mesinge s. Bjerge h. Fyn. *1366-87 Torp.
> Taarup, Vokslev s. Hornum h. 1441 Thorpæ.
> Mange flere forekomster.
>
> ...
> THU:RI(R), mn. fsv. Thure, vn. þo:rir. Det opr. er Thu:rir, gen.
> -s, men -r er tidl. bortfaldet, hvorefter der er sket overgang til
> svag böjning: Thu:ri.
> 1. Tureby s. Fakse h. c. 1370 Turby. Se reg. A: BY 58.
> 2. Törslev, Görlev s. Horns h. Sjæll. *1158-77 Thureslövæ, 1257
> Turislef.
> Törslev, Estruplund s. Rougsö h. *1425 Törslöff, 1426 Thörslöff.
> Vester Törslev s. Nörhald h. *1412 Thörslöff.
> Öster Törslev s. Gerlev h. *1412 Thörslöff, 1463 Thöslöff.
>
> Det opr. Thu:rir har faaet i-omlyd til Thyrir og lydaabning y > ö
> foran r (Sönderg. Lev p. 112). Herefter er afrunding
> (delabialisering) ö > e sket i Terslev s. Ringsted h. 1340-54
> Törslef. Hald foretrækker (Randers amts hist. aarb. 1959, p. 9) i
> forleddet at finde et mn. Thö:rir, en sideform til Tho:rir. Paa
> lign. maade antyder DS II, 134 et mn. Thy:rir for det sjæll.
> Törslev. Se reg. A: LEV 92.
> 3. Törskind, Bredsten s. Törrild h. 1524 tyskynd, 1570 Tuskind.
> Se reg. A: KIN(D) 6.
> ...
> THY:RIR, mn. DgP I, 1443 opfatter det som opstaaet af Thy:rge:r,
> hvorimod Hald PD I, 46, 52 regner med i-omlyd af Thu:rir.
> Tyrstrup h. *1231 Thyurstrupheret, efter lb. Tyrstrup, 1315
> Tyrrestorp, 1354 Thyrstrop. Medens Hald PD I, 46 regner med
> Thy:rir, er han i NO tilböjelig til at tolke forleddet som mn.
> Thiu:r = dyrenavnet tyr, saaledes ogsaa DS IV, 271.
> Tyrrestrupgaarde, Bislev s. Hornum h. 1445 Thyristrop.
> Tyrrestrup, gde, Torslev s. Dronninglund h. 1662 Therestrup.
> Tyrrestrup, hgd. Sövind s. Voer h. 1438 Thyrestropp.
> Tirstrup s. Djurs Sönder h. c. 1300 Tistorp, 1444 Tiistorp.
>
> Efter Hald NO er forled i det sidste navn saavel som i Tistrup s.
> Ö. Horne h. 1330-48 Tiistorp et mn. *Ti:ste:n, hvori indgaar
> gudenavnet *Ti: el. appellativet ti: "gud". Det afvises af Kousg.
> S. Sted 125.
> '
>
> Why both a *Tho:r- and a *Thu:r-?
>
> de Vries,
> Altnordisches etymologhisches Wörterbuch
> 'Thórr m. Gottername, altere form Thunarr (poet.).
> - > ae. Thu:r, Tho:r (Bjorkman 180); >
> finn. Turisas 'kriegsgott'
> < Tu:r + isa 'vater' (Setala FUF 13, 1913, 463).
> - ae Thunor, as. Thunar, ahd. Donar.
> - gall. Tanaros.
> - Eig. der name des 'donners'
> far. tora f.,
> nnorw. tor,
> nschw. dial. to:r'in, vgl.
> ae. dhuner, afr. thuner, mnd. doner, duner,
> mnl. donre, donder, ahd. donar,
> zu dem Zw.
> ae. dhunian, mnd. donen, mhd. dunen 'tonen'.
> - lat. tonare, ai. tanyati, gr. lesb. tennei 'es donnert'
> (IEW 1021).
> - vgl. Thyn 1. und stynja.
> Zur form Thórr ist zu bemerken:
> statt Thunarr nach analogie des d. sg. Thóri < *Thunre (A. Noreen
> IF14, 1903, 400), oder aus einer nebenform *ThunraR (Hj. Lindroth
> NB 4, 1916, 161).
> - Für die PN., die als 1. glied den namen enthalten vgl. Thór-, die
> namen wie Arnthórr, Bergthórr, Hafthórr, Hallthórr (oder Halldórr),
> Steinórr sind aber wohl anders zu beurteilen; sie sind wohl mit dem
> PN. Thórir gebildet,
> vgl. g. sg. Hafóris (J. Sahlgren NB 16, 1928, 7).
> '
>
> Somehow de Vries' explanation of the alternation o/u doesn't
> convince me.
> 1) Why would the alternation o/u occur in the PN's Thóri(r) and
> *Thuri(r) then?
> 2) If those first elements are the name of the god himself, why
> would their presumably constant form be influenced by an
> alternation in the different case forms?
>
>
> Torsten