Re: Celtic Tanarus and Gmc Thunaraz

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Anatoly Guzaev <anatoly_guzaev@...> wrote:

>
>
> AFAIK, Matasovic is a native speaker of Serbo-Croatian and I wonder
> why he didn't mention the Serb.-Cr. udaranje "batting, beating,
> throb, hitting, kicking" (Russ. udar 'strike). Also, it seems
> that there is the Serb.-Cr. word tandaranje (noise, uproar) which
> may perhaps be compared to English thunder.
>
> To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
> From: xthanex@...
> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 12:18:55 +0000
> Subject: [tied] Re: Celtic Tanarus and Gmc Thunaraz
>
> Following up and rephrasing this...
>
>
>
> Way back in 1900, the antiquarian H. Munro Chadwick mentioned the
> dedication in Chester, England, which is to "I.O. M. Tanaro".
> Chadwick remarks about the other inscriptions to Taranus and
> Taranucus. He also makes mention that Tanarus corresponds to
> Thunuraz.

> Watkins AHDIER and Pokorny both give the distinct PIE *(s)ten- as
> the origin of PGmc Thunaraz and such terms as Thunder, Thor,
> Donner, etc. Pokorny then gives the seperate PIE *tor- as the
> origin of the Celtic taran/torann.
>
> Of course AHDIER only gives English roots and so no mention of an
> etymology for the Celtic taran is made.
>
> On the other hand, in 'An etymological lexicon of Proto-Celtic' by
> Matasovic, I found this entry:
> Proto-Celtic: *torano- 'thunder' [Noun]
> Old Irish: torann [o m and Æ' f] 'thunder, noise'
> Middle Welsh: taran [f] '(peal of) thunder, thunderclap'
> Middle Breton: taran (OBret.) gl. tonitru, MoBret. taran
> Cornish: taran gl. tonitruum (OCo.), MCo. taran
> Gaulish: Taranis [Theonym]
>
> Proto-Indo-European: *(s)ten-r-
> Page in Pokorny: 1021
> IE cognates: OHG donar, English thunder
>
> Notes: The Celtic forms are best explained by a
> metathesis *tonaro- > *torano-, despite some doubts expressed by
> LEIA (s. v.). The unmetathesized form is perhaps attested as the
> OBrit. theonym Tanaro and in the old name of the river Po, Tanarus
> 'thundering'.
>
> References: LEIA T-113, GPC III: 3447, Delamarre 290
>

> Thus Matasovic follows Pokorny and Watkins in saying that PIE
> *(s)ten-r- is the origin of Thunder/Donner ; and yet Matasovic
> disagrees with Pokorny by staing that the Celtic forms do not
> derive from a distinct PIE root (*tor-) but rather from a
> metathesis of *tonaro- > *torano-.
>
> On the other hand, the IE database of Nikolaev and Starostin,
> gives Proto-IE: *taron- <PIH *-rH-> as the origin of BOTH
> the Celtic Taran and the Gmc Thunr/Thunraz; as well as the Hittite
> Tarhun and other derivatives.
>
> Any ideas on whether Taran and Thunder share a common IE root
>
> (whether that root be *taron- [per Nikolaev and Starostin] or
> (s)tene- [per Matasovic] )?

I like the idea of a metathesis, so I'll propose it for ODa thordyn, thorden, Da.,No. torden, OSw. þordyn, Sw tordön (DEO) "thunder", which will make it a cognate of Eng. thunder etc; the traditional explanation is as (the cognates of) Þor-din ("Þor noise"). We could propose original *tonr- -> *tondr- (with later epenthetic vowels, which would be unique in PGmc.(?)) -> tordn- (supported by popular etymology as Þor-din).

The following has annoyed me for some time:
HÃ¥ndbog i danske stednavne
'THO:RI, mn. fsv. Thori.
Måske svagtbøjet sideform til THO:RIR, fsv. Thorer, vn. þórir (< þórgeirr?). Dette Tho:rir findes i Sønder Tåstrup, Idestrup s. Falster Sønder h. *1231 Thoristhorp syndræ, og måske i Torslev s. Dronninglund h. Se reg. A: LEV 89.
Om Nørre Tåstrup se reg. B: TO:STI 1.
Flere af de i det følgende opførte navne er næppe alle sikre sammensætninger med Tho:ri, der ofte må antages at være sammenfaldet med mn. THO:RTH, vn. þo:rðr, gen. -ar og TO:KI.

1. Torup, Sandager s. BÃ¥g h. 1383 Todorp.
Skov-Torup, Kongsted s. Fakse h. 1402 Tortropp, 1472 Skovdorp.
Hammer-Torup, Hammer s. og h. *1346 Thoræthorp, 1596 Hammerstorp. Søtorup, Bråby s. Ringsted h. 1456 Tordrop.
TÃ¥rup, Tavlov s. Elbo h. 1479 Torduph, 1532 Tordorp.
Mange flere forekomster.
Toreby s. Musse h. *1231 Thoræby. Se reg. A: BY 58.
ANM. Toreby, Ryde s. Lolland Sønder h. *1429, 1473 Tornby. Se reg. C: TORN. I følgende navne Torup og Tårup findes simplexordet TORP:

2. Torup, gde, Vrads s. og h. *1517 Thorrupmarck.
Torup, Aggersborg s. Ø. Han h. 1468 Torp.
Torup, Simested s. Rinds h. *1396 Totrup, 1466 Tharupp.
TÃ¥rup, Mesinge s. Bjerge h. Fyn. *1366-87 Torp.
Tårup, Vokslev s. Hornum h. 1441 Thorpæ.
Mange flere forekomster.

...
THU:RI(R), mn. fsv. Thure, vn. þo:rir. Det opr. er Thu:rir, gen. -s, men -r er tidl. bortfaldet, hvorefter der er sket overgang til svag bøjning: Thu:ri.
1. Tureby s. Fakse h. c. 1370 Turby. Se reg. A: BY 58.
2. Tørslev, Gørlev s. Horns h. Sjæll. *1158-77 Thuresløvæ, 1257 Turislef.
Tørslev, Estruplund s. Rougsø h. *1425 Tørsløff, 1426 Thørsløff. Vester Tørslev s. Nørhald h. *1412 Thørsløff.
Øster Tørslev s. Gerlev h. *1412 Thørsløff, 1463 Thøsløff.

Det opr. Thu:rir har fået i-omlyd til Thyrir og lydåbning y > ø foran r (Sønderg. Lev p. 112). Herefter er afrunding (delabialisering) ø > e sket i Terslev s. Ringsted h. 1340-54 Tørslef. Hald foretrækker (Randers amts hist. årb. 1959, p. 9) i forleddet at finde et mn. Thø:rir, en sideform til Tho:rir. På lign. måde antyder DS II, 134 et mn. Thy:rir for det sjæll. Tørslev. Se reg. A: LEV 92.
3. Tørskind, Bredsten s. Tørrild h. 1524 tyskynd, 1570 Tuskind. Se reg. A: KIN(D) 6.
...
THY:RIR, mn. DgP I, 1443 opfatter det som opstået af Thy:rge:r, hvorimod Hald PD I, 46, 52 regner med i-omlyd af Thu:rir.
Tyrstrup h. *1231 Thyurstrupheret, efter lb. Tyrstrup, 1315 Tyrrestorp, 1354 Thyrstrop. Medens Hald PD I, 46 regner med Thy:rir, er han i NO tilbøjelig til at tolke forleddet som mn. Thiu:r = dyrenavnet tyr, således også DS IV, 271.
Tyrrestrupgårde, Bislev s. Hornum h. 1445 Thyristrop.
Tyrrestrup, gde, Torslev s. Dronninglund h. 1662 Therestrup.
Tyrrestrup, hgd. Søvind s. Voer h. 1438 Thyrestropp.
Tirstrup s. Djurs Sønder h. c. 1300 Tistorp, 1444 Tiistorp.

Efter Hald NO er forled i det sidste navn såvel som i Tistrup s. Ø. Horne h. 1330-48 Tiistorp et mn. *Ti:ste:n, hvori indgår gudenavnet *Ti: el. appellativet ti: "gud". Det afvises af Kousg. S. Sted 125.
'

Why both a *Þo:r- and a *Þu:r-?

de Vries,
Altnordisches etymologhisches Wörterbuch
'Þórr m. Gottername, altere form Þunarr (poet.).
â€" > ae. Þu:r, Þo:r (Bjorkman 180); >
finn. Turisas 'kriegsgott'
< Tu:r + isa 'vater' (Setala FUF 13, 1913, 463).
â€" ae Þunor, as. Thunar, ahd. Donar.
â€" gall. Tanaros.
â€" Eig. der name des 'donners'
far. tora f.,
nnorw. tor,
nschw. dial. to:r'in, vgl.
ae. ðuner, afr. thuner, mnd. doner, duner,
mnl. donre, donder, ahd. donar,
zu dem Zw.
ae. ðunian, mnd. donen, mhd. dunen 'tonen'.
â€" lat. tonare, ai. tanyati, gr. lesb. tennei 'es donnert' (IEW 1021).
â€" vgl. Þyn 1. und stynja.
Zur form Þórr ist zu bemerken:
statt Þunarr nach analogie des d. sg. Þóri < *Þunre (A. Noreen IF14,
1903, 400), oder aus einer nebenform *ÞunraR (Hj. Lindroth NB
4, 1916, 161).
â€" Für die PN., die als 1. glied den namen enthalten vgl. Þór-, die namen wie Arnþórr, Bergþórr, Hafþórr, Hallþórr (oder Halldórr), Steinþórr sind aber wohl anders zu beurteilen; sie sind wohl mit dem PN. Þórir gebildet,
vgl. g. sg. Hafþóris (J. Sahlgren NB 16, 1928, 7).
'

Somehow de Vries' explanation of the alternation o/u doesn't convince me.
1) Why would the alternation o/u occur in the PN's Þóri(r) and *Þuri(r) then?
2) If those first elements are the name of the god himself, why would their presumably constant form be influenced by an alternation in the different case forms?


Torsten



Torsten