From: tgpedersen
Message: 63565
Date: 2009-03-05
>cf. DEO
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > http://runeberg.org/display.pl?mode=facsimile&work=svetym&page=0300
> >
> > gyckla, "conjure, perform tricks"
> > 1600's. alt. -ö- = Da. gøgle,
> > from MLG gôkelen, LG gökeln (-ü) =
> > OHG goukelôn (Germ. gaukeln) etc, cf.
> > OHG gougolôn plus MHG gogelen; poss.
> > rel. to MHG giege(l), (court) jester,
> > and in that case native Germanic;
> > in any case prob., as also gyckel
> > (MLG gokel) gycklare (mlty. gökeler),
> > influenced by
> > MLat. jocularis, jocularius, musician, conjurer
> > (see jonglera).
>
>
> Any chance that OHG goukelôn, MLG gôkelen could be related to MLG
> gôk "simpleton", ON gaukr "cuckoo", Engl gowk "cuckoo; simpleton,
> fool", OE géac "cuckoo", OHG gouh "cuckoo, bastard, fool", G gauch
> "cuckoo, simpleton, gawk", which OED relates to *gau- as in ON
> geyja "to bark, to blaspheme", WFris geije "to cry out", ME yeie
> "to cry out, shout, call out, utter in a loud voice"? Possible
> semantic development would be "fool>jester>entertainer>conjurer"
> and then the verbs could develop from the latter with the influence
> of Lat. joculator?
> >Well, I'm proposing they're substrate, so their number is not
> > cf. Du. goochelen, goochelaar id.
> >
> > and Du. gokken "gamble".
> >
>
> Don't know the origin of these, but wouldn't more words than just
> this group alternate between *j and *g if there really was an
> alternation between *j and *g in initial position?
> As you've said,You showed that one could posit one morphophonemic mechanism within
> I already explained OE géol, ME yo:l, etc. and also OHG
> jesan/gesan, OHG jehan = OS gehan, as having only *j originally, no
> *g.
> > And why not Engl. juggle, Fr. jongler.They would, wouldn't they? And how do they fit in 'jangle'?
> >
>
> Both taken to be from Lat. joculari "to jest" by the OED.
> > Now if we really, really want a FU connection, how aboutAnd then I fell over this:
> >
> >
> > UEW
> >
> > 'juGe- (juke-) 'trinken' FU
> >
> > Finn. juo- 'trinken, saufen';
> > est. joo-, juu- |
> >
> > lapp.
> > N jukkâ- -g- 'drink',
> > L juhka- 'id.; saufen',
> > K (468) T jukki-,
> > Kld. jukke-,
> > Not. juhke-,
> > A jukke- 'trinken; (Tabak) rauchen' |
> >
> > tscher.
> > KB jüä-,
> > U d´üa- 'trinken',
> > B jüja-,
> > KB B jükte-,
> > U d´ükte- 'zu trinken geben' |
> >
> > wotj.
> > S ju-, K d´u- 'trinken; feiern', (Wichm.)
> > G jui.- 'trinken',
> > S juktal-, l´uktal- 'tränken, zu trinken geben' |
> >
> > syrj.
> > S P PO ju- 'trinken',
> > S juktal- 'tränken, zu trinken geben' |
> >
> > ? ostj. (OL 11)
> > Vj. jän´t´- 'Schnaps trinken',
> > DN jån´t´-,
> > O jes´- 'trinken' |
> >
> > wog. (WV 135)
> > TJ äj- KU äj-, P ä:j- ~ äj-, So. aj- 'trinken' |
> >
> > ung. iv- (i-, isz-) 'trinken, saufen'.
> >
> >
> > Das ostj. Wort kann nur dann hierher gehören, wenn n´t´, s´
> > Ableitungssuffix ist.
> >
> > Der palatale Vokal der ersten Silbe im Tscher., Ostj. und Wog.
> > kann durch den Einfluß der palatalen Konsonantenumgebung erklärt
> > werden.
> >
> > Im Wog. ist *j geschwunden.'
> >
> >
> > and/or
> >
> >
> > 'jukta- 'sprechen, erzählen' FW, ? FU
> >
> > Finn.
> > juttele- 'sprechen, erzählen',
> > juttu 'Gespräch, Erzählung, Märchen'
> > (> lapp. K (497) T juhte- 'erzählen');
> > est. jutt (Gen. jutu) 'Rede, Gespräch, Unterhaltung, Plauderei;
> > Geschichte, Erzählung, Fabel, Märchen',
> > ütle- 'sagen, aussprechen, behaupten, ausdrücken' |
> >
> > mord.
> > E M jofta-,
> > E jovta- 'sagen, melden, erzählen, schildern; bestimmen;
> > erklären, deuten',
> > E M jofks, E jovks 'Rätsel, Märchen' |
> >
> > ? ung.
> > játsz- 'spielen, eine Rolle spielen, darstellen',
> > játék 'Spiel; Spielzeug'.
> >
> > Im Ung. kann eine Bedeutungsentwicklung 'erzählen' ->
> > '(Rolle) spielen, darstellen' ->
> > 'spielen' angenommen werden; vgl.
> > lat. iocus 'Scherz, Schäkerei, Zeitvertrieb, Spiel' ~
> > ahd. jehan, gehan 'sagen, sprechen, bekennen' <
> > ieur. *iek- 'sprechen';
> > tschuw. kala 'sprechen, sagen' ~ 'spielen (ein Instrument)'.
> >
> > Ostj. (OL 48)
> > V jan,ka-,
> > DN O jant- und
> > wog. (WV 69)
> > TJ jank-,
> > KU janG-,
> > P jann-,
> > So. jonG- 'spielen' (...) können wegen des inlautenden n keine
> > Entsprechungen von ung. játsz- sein.'
> >
> > Note the nice example with the same semantic spread, although UEW
> > doesn't claim relatedness like I do.
> >
> > With both entries UEW must take conditional exception to or
> > exclude similar words because of what appears to be an n-infix;
> > since I see these as substrate loans in both FU and IE, probably
> > from the -ar-/-ur- language, identical to Schrijver's language of
> > geminates which allows it, I can accept them as belonging to the
> > entry.
>See if you can get the Uralisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch from your
> I for one can believe you on this one, but my opinion is not worth
> anything because I know effectively nothing about FU (except that
> people often use it as an abbreviation for an offensive expression)
> or the -ar-/-ur- language.I've uploaded three of Kuhn's articles on the subject to the files