Re: American Dutch dialects

--- On Thu, 2/26/09, Andrew Jarrette <anjarrette@...> wrote:

> From: Andrew Jarrette <anjarrette@...>
> Subject: [tied] Re: American Dutch dialects
> To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 1:54 PM
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen"
> <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > > On another subject:
> > > > Chasing links I fell over this
> > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jersey_Dutch
> > > >
> http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/ginn001hand01_01/ginn001hand01_01_0012.htm
> > > >
> http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/daan001ikwa01_01/daan001ikwa01_01_0003.htm
> > > > http://www.bartleby.com/185/a12.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Torsten
> > > >
> > >
> > > These links are all very interesting, presenting
> much information
> > > about North American Dutch dialects I never knew
> (but always
> > > suspected) existed.
> > >
> > > Andrew
> > >
> >
> > I heard some guy doing a series om them on Dutch
> radio.
> > I think they rather strengthen my case that standard
> American English
> > (not the various dialects) has a Dutch substrate. ;-)
> > That would have happened when New York based authors
> 'reached down'
> > into lower sociological layers to find something to
> strengthen the
> > American culture, since the 'higher' culture
> was English (Washington
> > Irving, Rip van Winkle, Santa Claus)
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Irving
> > in style with what European writers did at the same
> time with their
> > country dialects.
> > Of course, the Anglophonic stereotype of the Dutch as
> clueless dorks
> > who live in windmills and have tulips in their garden
> would work
> > against a recognition that this is how it went down.
> >
> > I tried to find some good YouTube examples of Zeeuws
> (that dialect is
> > supposed to have played a large part in the formation
> of Afrikaans
> > too) with some nice Leids/American retroflex r's,
> but so far without
> > success.
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_dialects
> > Your beloved Old Saxon is to the right.
> > I find it intriguing that the Heliand was written to
> the south of
> > Holland, that makes Dutch an enclave of something
> else.
> >
> >
> > Torsten
> >
>
>
> All very interesting, the links and comments you provided.
> But did
> you think that Dutch is descended from Old Saxon, as your
> last
> sentence seems to suggest? Of course it is the modern
> representative
> of Old Low Franconian, which we have been discussing
> recently on the
> list (the Lex Salica and the other monastic vows whose
> manuscripts
> we've examined, and the first examples of Dutch/Flemish
> these contain
> (e.g. the "hebban olla vogala nestas hagunnan hinase
> hi(c) (e)nda thu
> w(at) (u)nbidan (w)e nu" and the "maltho thi
> afrio lito"/"maltho: the
> atomeo, theo"). But you know that already, don't
> you?
>
> Andrew

Perhaps NYC English has a Dutch substrate --e.g. "Dem bums don' know nuttin' 'bout dat." "Put da erl in da cah." "Flush dem toids in da terlet." But standard US English did not spread from NYC, it spread from the Philly area, Lancaster Co. PA and points west with the arrival of the Scots-Irish and Germans, the Pennsylvania Dutch.