Re: My version

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Jarrette" <anjarrette@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 12:48 AM
Subject: [tied] Re: My version


>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Francesco Brighenti" <frabrig@...>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> > Usage note :
>> >
>> > In many dialects [I add : of American English that is to say],
>> > people use as in place of that in sentences like <We are not sure
>> > as we want to go> or <It's not certain as he left>. This
>> > construction is not sufficiently well established to be used in
>> > writing.
>>
>> Along with other constructions exemplified in the same dictionary
>> entry (<Them as thinks they can whup me jest come ahead> and <The
>> car what hit him never stopped>), I wonder, and ask the connoisseurs
>> of American English on the List, if this type of constructions isn't
>> simply the product of an ignorance of English grammar. Are the above
>> constructions used by all social groups in an geographic area, or
>> are they the prerogative of the uneducated ones? Because my notion
>> of a 'dialect' is that it can be spoken by all the members of the
>> social fabric, including the educated ones (as is the case with
>> Italian dialects).
>>
>> FB
>>
>
> Since no one seems to be answering your request, I'll offer what I
> can, but I'm not a connoisseur of American English:
>
> That type of constructions _sounds_ like ignorance of English grammar,
> and may well be, but I don't think you'd ever encounter them outside
> of certain geographical boundaries (e.g. the southern Appalachians or
> the Ozarks). It may be a combination of geographical peculiarity and
> ignorance of English grammar. In the geographical areas mentioned
> (the southern Appalachians and the Ozarks), I don't know if there are
> indeed more than one social group or stratum. Actually, I should say
> "if there were" because I think such extremely divergent language
> either has died out or is dying out, as more and more people become
> educated. But I think you're right, that people living in these areas
> who are educated would not use such grammatical constructions, so they
> are probably not markers of dialect, more just symptomatic of
> isolation. Nevertheless had these areas been given enough time and
> had remained isolated long enough, they might well have evolved into
> marginally-intelligible dialects rather than regional varieties.
> But others on the list are probably more qualified to answer your
> question, I hope they do soon.
>
> I should add that my brother-in-law, who is a 58-year-old native of
> eastern Ontario, Canada, uses constructions such as "the guy as told
> me" (= the guy who told me) and "I see as it's getting late" (= I see
> that it's getting late). He is the only Canadian I have ever heard
> using such constructions.
>
> Andrew
>
========

That concept of "ignorance of English grammar" is a fallacy anyway.
Otherwise, dialects would be ignorance of the official norm.

Some people do that. This is a raw linguistic fact.
And it's frequent enough to be worth a comment in a dictionary.

This is more "alternative" grammar and as such it's a particular
(idio)dialectal feature.

A.