Re: OE Tir and OHG Ziari

Brian,

I want to apologize in advance for the remedial nature of my remarks
below :^)

In modern heathenry, Asatru, Norse paganism, whatever you wish to
call it; it is frequently remarked over and over that ON Týr, OE
Ti:w, and PGmc *Ti:waz are all derived from the same PGmc root as OE
ti:r, ON tírr, and OHG ziari.
This supposed linguistic connection is written about in various books
and articles.

I'm a heathen and an amateur student of comparative Indo-European
mythology. Linguistics is really beyond me, but I know it is crucial
to understanding the past, hence my rather dunderheaded questions
from time to time.
Anyway, if PGmc Ti:waz is not related to OE ti:r, ON tírr, and OHG
ziari.... then I'd like to help educate the masses of heathenry and
stop them from perpetuating a mistake.


So for the sake of simplifying matters so my small brain can grasp
them:
1) ON Týr & OE Ti:w both derive from PGmc *Ti:waz ; which in turn
derives from PIE *deiwos and so eventually traces back to PIE *dyeu-
??

2) Whereas OE ti:r, ON tírr, and OHG ziari all stem from PGmc. *ti:-
ra-, which in turn derives from PIE *dih2-ro- and thus PIE *deyh2- ??

3) Can you think of any other words derived from PGmc *ti:-ya- ?

I really appreciate your help!
Sincerely,
Aydan

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <BMScott@...> wrote:
>
> At 8:13:19 AM on Saturday, January 31, 2009, A. wrote:
>
> > I was reading a post elsewhere on the net
> > (http://forums.skadi.net/archive/index.php/t-54081.html)
> > where someone remarked that the OE Tir 'glory' was
> > etymologically unrelated to Tyr.
>
> That's OE <ti:r>, cognate with ON <tírr> 'glory, renown',
> and ON <Týr>, cognate with OE <Ti:w>. Note that the <-r> of
> <Týr> is inflexional and completely unrelated to the <-r> of
> <ti:r>.
>
> > I had always thought the two shared a commonr origin. I
> > see that Pokorny derives both from *dei- , which is listed
> > as *deiwos in Watkins AHDIER.
>
> Not quite: he gives the immediate PIE source of the theonyms
> as *deiwos (> PGmc. *ti:waz), but the underlying root is
> *dyeu-. OE <ti:r> and ON <tírr> look to me as if they ought
> to be from *dih2-ro- (> PGmc. *ti:-ra-), where *dih2- is the
> zero grade of *deyh2- 'to shine'. I believe that this root
> is generally thought to be related to *dyew-; you'll note
> that Watkins calls it a variant in part IV of his entry for
> *dyeu-.
>
> > The only evidence I have found to support this man's claim
> > is from 'Transactions of the Philological Society By
> > Philological Society (Dec 19 1879)' in which:
>
> > " A paper by Mr H NICOL correcting some of the English
> > Etymologies adopted by the Rev Prof Skeat in the first
> > part of his Dictionary and for the most part generally
> > received was read in the unavoidable absence of the author
> > by Mr H Sweet..... OE, O Sax, and O Norse, tir 'glory', is
> > not the cognate of OHG ziari, the words having different
> > root-vowels, different terminations, and different
> > genders;"
>
> This doesn't support the claim: it denies the usual view
> that OHG <ziari> goes with OE & OSax <ti:r>, and ON <tírr>,
> but it doesn't connect it with ON <Týr> and OE <Ti:w>.
>
> Brian
>