Re: Sos-

From: tgpedersen
Message: 62635
Date: 2009-01-28

> Actually to Arizona, it seems.
> http://www.uaf.edu/anlc/docs/vajda-2008.pdf
> quote:
> 'A number of Yeniseic roots have final velar fricative /x/ in Kott
> or Arin, but apical plosive /d/ in Ket/Yugh; cf. Kott -thex and Ket
> -tet 'poke, hit endwise using a long object'. Some of the Ket/Yugh
> roots show an irregular morphophonemic alternation between d and
> velar G or k when a plural suffix is added: Ket -tet vs. -teG-in
> (in verb forms with a plural subject); also Ket di't 'spruce
> grouse', dekn, 'spruce grouses'. This suggests that the final velar
> was original. Na-Dene cognates, where available, confirm this: PA
> *d&x 'grouse, spruce hen' (Krauss & Leer 1981:190). Similarly,
> compare Kott -thex and Ket -tet 'poke, hit endwise using a long
> object' with the Proto-Athabaskan cognate * ts&x 'poke, act endwise
> with a rigid stick-like object' (Young & Morgan 1992:604).
> This pattern only applies in the case of *x after an original back
> vowel, since coda *x (as well as *xW and *x fronted to *s^ in
> Proto-Yeniseic and finally to apical /s/ in Modern Ket. Once again,
> irregularities in plural forms reveal which final s-sounds in Modern
> Ket derive from original *s and which from a back fricative. The
> reflexes of original /s/ never merge with the nasal ending, so that
> the plural ending appears as a separate element: ki's 'foot' ->
> kis-en, 'feet'. But /s/ derived from a back fricative invariably
> causes assimilation of the nasal plural suffix, resulting in the
> creation of a falling tone: Ket de's 'eye' -> dès 'eyes' (cf. PA
> ne'x 'eye'). Also cf. PA *de'xW' river, sandbar' (Krauss 2005:84)
> and Ket se's 'river' but sàs 'rivers', where long distance
> assimilation changed the onset *d to /s/ in Ket. The original form
> of 'river' was apparently preserved in the extinct Yeniseic
> dialects of Western Siberia, which left numerous hydronyms ending
> in -tes, -tis^, including the famous Irtysh River.
> A topic for future research involves the issue of long-distance
> (onset + coda) consonant harmony in early Yeniseic. The Yeniseic
> cognates for 'river', which appear in hydronyms over vast stretches
> of western and central Siberia, show various alternations involving
> sibilants and /d/: cf. Ket se's, Yugh c^es, as well as tes ~ tis
> from at least one of not several undocumented Yeniseic languages of
> western Siberia. Too few words show this alternation to be clear on
> the nature of the assimilation, though it most likely preceded from
> coda to onset, at least in Ket and Yugh, since the onset
> correspondence of Ket se's and Yugh c^es is unique to this word.
> The final vowel, as well as the anomalous consonant in Kott/Assan
> cognates Kott s^eti and Assan c^eti 'river' appear to derive from a
> suffix /ti/ (This vowel elides when 'river' is the second component
> of a hydronym: Kott -s^et, Assan -c^et, but remains in the plural
> of the free-standing nouns: Kott s^ati, Assan -c^ati.). The
> Pumpokol det 'river' shows a typical change of /s/ to /t/. The
> original Proto-Yeniseic form for 'river' was therefore probably
> something like *deis^ or *dais and is a probable cognate to PA
> *de'xW 'river, sandbar' (Krauss 2005:84), which appears in the
> combining form -dez^W&` in river names of Athabaskan provenance
> across a broad area of north central Canada. See Kari (1996:260)
> for a superb discussion of Northern Athabaskan hydronyms.'
>
>
> The "river" word is here:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeniseian_languages
>
> For any of the proposed proto-forms for this Yeniseian "river,
> sandbar", Uralic sose (sase) "Schneebrei; schwammig, porös (Knochen,
> Baum)" would make sense as a loan, adapted to Uralic phonologigical
> constraints (note that both forms have 'ablaut').
>
> As for the strange double semantics "carcass; brittle ice" an exact
> counterpart exists in Danish (pt. II):
>
> DEO:
> Skrog et 'krop; skelet; kernehus; skibslegeme; sølle person';
> ænyda. skrog, skraag, no. skrog, skrov.
> Egl. vistnok to forsk. ord:
> I. En sideform til sv. dial. skrokk 'skrog', oldnord. skrokkr m.
> 'krop, klodset person, skrog';
> af urnord. *skrunkaR, der ligesom da. dial. skrunken 'indskrumpet'
> (s.d.), oldnord. skrukka 'gammel, rynket kone' hører til sa. rod som
> II. rynke. —
> 2. En form modsv. no. skrov 'skrog; åbnet dyrekrop; ngt.
> skrøbeligt', sv. skrov 'krop, dyrekrop, skrog, skrummel; ru
> overflade (af is)', vel af germ. *skruB-, ie. *skrup-, hvis videre
> forb. er usikker. — Jf. skroget.'
>
> Hellquist wants to separate the meanings completely:
> http://runeberg.org/display.pl?mode=facsimile&work=svetym&page=0839
>
> But an if we assume a loan, a match seems to be present in
>
> Ordbog over det danske Sprog
> 'Skodse. + Skotse, se u. Isskosse. — nu sj. Skaasse.
> Krist.JyA.Till.5.Afd.l20(jf. u. Is-skosse). Skaadse.
> POWalløe.Dagb.110. —
> ogs. Sko(d)s, [obsolete] Skots, se u. Isskosse;. flt. -r.
> (vistnok fra holl. scho(t)s (nordfris. skos, nt. (flt.) schussen),-
> et andet ord (jf. holl. schors, f., bark, [obsolete] i bet.
> isskorpe, isflage, af oldfr. escorce, lat. cortex, se Kork) er vel
> bornh. (is)skors, n., isflage (BornhHaandvEr.43.45. 58. BornhOS.);
> sml. endvidere (i sa. bet.) Kosse, II. Skodde (Skotte, Skode, Skud),
> I. Skolle)
> 1) (især marit.) stykke ell. tyk flage af is; dels om større,
> drivende isflage, dels (sjældnere) om mindre, knuste brokker af is
> (der danner grødis), vi (mødte) endeel Skaadser og tillige
> nattelagt Iis.
> POWalløe.Dagb.110. herind driver.. Vestisens tunge, aargamle
> Skosser.
> KnudRasm. G. 45. Skodser betyder itu-brudt Is, ikke store Flager,
> men smaa knoldede Isblokke. BerlTid.11/7 l921.Aft.3.sp.l.
> 2) (geol., nu næppe br.) om stort sammenhængende parti ("flage") af
> jordskorpen, der har modstaaet senere omdannelser. Alpe- og
> Karpatherlandet danner, geologisk set, det „unge Europa". Ældgamle
> Jordskodser mangle vel ikke her, men disse Egnes typiske
> Overfladeform, de skarpt skaarne Kædebjærge, ere dog Nyskabninger.
> Sal.VI.277.'
>
> And note here Dutch schaatsen (cf. schots above) "to skate", and
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/60087
> plus Sw. skjuts (now mostly ride n., as in being offered a ride)
> http://runeberg.org/display.pl?mode=facsimile&work=svetym&page=0827
>
> Language of geminate auslaut variation -nt-/-tt-/-ts- and root
> -a/-u- ablaut of the ar-/ur-language. Ir doesn' get much better
> than that.
>
> So it's "(move (fast) in/on) thin ice"?
>
> Perhaps we would the have solved the riddle of the Gmc. "shoe" word.
>
> UEW
> 's´ona 'Schlitten' FU
>
> lapp. (T. I. Itk., WbKKlp. 690)
> T t's^´i&n,n,V,
> Kld. t's^´u&n,n,e, 'bootförmiger Lappenschlitten' (> kar. tsuna),
> ?(T. I. Itk., WbKKlp. 638)
> Ko. P tsu:n,e, Kld. t's´´un,n, 'Rentierschlitten von karelischer Art
> (Ko. P), russischer Schlitten (Kld.)' |
>
> wog. (Kann., mitg. Liim.: MSFOu. 127:120)
> TJ s^on 'Schlitten', (Kann.: FUF 17:85)
> KU son: jojt&x s. 'Lastschlitten',
> (Kann.—Liim.: MSFOu. 134:176) P s^un 'Schlitten',
> (Kann., mitg. Stein., WogVok. 275) So. sun.
>
> Vgl. alt.:
> tat c^ana,
> s^or. s^anak,
> türkm. s^a:na,
> tschuw. s´ona 'Schlitten';
> mong. c^ana 'sleigh, ski, snowshoes'.
>
> Möglicherweise ist lapp. Ko. P tsu:n,e 'Rentierschlitten von
> karelischer Art' die Übernahme des russ. dial. c^uni
> 'Rentierschlitten mit hohem Ständer', das wiederum möglicherweise
> aus dem lapp. (vgl. Kld. t's^´u&n,n,e 'bootförmiger
> Lappenschlitten") ins Russ. gelangte.
> Das von Serebrennikov (ALH 15:300) mit dem wog. Wort
> zusammensgestellre jur. (155) O xan, P kan 'Schlitten' gehört nicht
> hierher, da der anlautende Konsonant auf ursprüngliches *k
> zurückgeht.'
>

Th. Kingo
Keed af Verden, og kier ad Himmelen
http://www.vufintern.dk/danklk/Materiale1/kingo-keed-af-verden.htm
'Hvad er det dog alt
Som Verden opsminker med fauer Gestalt?
Det er jo kun Skygger og skinnende Glar,
Det er jo kun Bobler og skrattende Kar,
Det er jo kun Ise-skrog, Skarn og Fortred,
Forfængelighed,
Forfængelighed.'

Vasmer (under 'strez^', but calls them 'unrelated ')
'bulg. skrez^ 'Reif, Rauhreif,
sloven. srê.z^ 'Reif, Treibeis',
c^ech. str^ís^ 'erstes dünnes Eis',
poln. s´rez. 'erstes Eis, Reif,
osorb. sre^z^,
nsorb. s^re^s 'Grundeis''

and perhaps we now have an etymology for the river Skrwa
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skrwa
otherwise mostly called Germanic.

A pre-(not Proto-)Gmc double root *skran,W-/*skran,gW- (not too
unlikely) would (might?) produce Gmc skrov-/skronk-.
But to get the Bornholmsk, French etc, we'd need something like
*(s)kort(s)-/*(s)korl-.
I can't get the thought out of my head that it might be related
somehow to the Uralic *sose- (*sase-) root by cluster reduction, which
would be what Uralic does.
Is there any particular reasion why the Uralic s´, I think it is,
which so weirdly turns into s-, t-, l- wasn't a cluster instead, say
*skr-/*str-?


Torsten


Torsten