Re: Sos-

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Arnaud Fournet" <fournet.arnaud@...>
wrote:

>
>
> > The problem with this Yeniseic word *ses 'river" is that it very
> > much looks like a LW from Uralic.

What do you think of the River Sos
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sos_River
or various Sosva rivers?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sosva_River

> > And the pattern s / t supposedly "native" to Yeniseic follows the
> > pattern of Ostyak l / y / s / t which explains more hydronyms than
> > Yeniseic can.
>
> How do you know Ostyak doesn't have a Yeniseian substrate?
>
> =======
>
> I'm trying to sort out all those hydronyms listed in Werner's
> Yeniseic Dictionary (2002).
> The first and obvious observation is that the area with Yeniseic
> items is much smaller than the area with Uralic items.
> The word "substrate" is clearly not neutral.

What's that supposed to mean?

> The situation is more that there is a huge Uralic area from Ural
> mountains to the eastern tributaries of the Yenisei River with
> Yeniseic dots here and there.
> Vajda agrees that Yeniseic is more or less intrusive

On what?

> but he nevertheless claims that the southern upstream Yenisei area
> is a kind of Yeniseic "Homeland".

For the Yeniseian languages on the Yenisei, that would make sense.

> I tend to disagree because if you follow the dots in the Tom Thumb
> way.

And so (whatever that means) did the Yeniseian peoples?

> 1 Existing Yeniseic (middle Yenisei river)
> 2. Southern Yenisei river
> 3. mid-stream Irtish River : couple of Yeniseic hydronyms with
> Turcicized phonetics.
> 4. Is-set River (a tributary of the Tobol) : fish-river in Yeniseic.
> Then you get out of the area.

Who gets out of what area??

> Yenisei came from the west and moved east, then north.

How does that follow?

> ========
>
> But if the first component is limited to just one particular branch
> of Uralic, how do you know it Uralic and not from a lost branch of
> Yeniseian?
>
> =======
>
> Because PErmic, UGric and Samoyedic are three different branches
> and there is no particular reason to invent a lost branch of
> Yeniseic.
> A.
> =======

Erh, what?? Could you please try to answer the question?

>
> > Side remarks:
> >
> > Ir-tys^ is "river Ir"? As in River Or-pe?
> >
> > =======
> >
> > Maybe just "drink-water".
> >
>
> Why 'drink'?
> Torsten
>
> ======
>
> I suppose they drink water the same way as the rest of mankind do.
> They won't eat it !?

Oh, you were just being a smartass. My mistake for not discovering that.


Torstem