--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Arnaud Fournet" <fournet.arnaud@...>
wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...>
> To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
>
> In what sense are those words Uralic hydronyms? Do they mean
> "wetness"? I can accept a word for "river" like 'Avon' being loaned,
> but not words for general humidity.
>
> Torsten
>
> =======
>
> They apply to rivers,
> they are etymologizable from either Uralic *el or *sos "wet" ...
> they have a first component which is also Uralic
>
> Example :
> pykejn-ses' a river flowing into the Bajicha in the Turuchan water-
> basin.
> This should be somewhere near Krasnoyarsk.
> A Kamass-samoyed word : hawk-wet, not explainable from Yeniseic.
>
> Another one :
> en-Roj-Ces : tall-birch-wet (Ugric)
>
> Or
> keäN-ses : mountain-wet (Selqup)
>
> or just :
> jelok "Jeloguj River" : OStyak Vassjugan : "wet" and that's it.
>
> Whatever theory about hydronyms you have will have to take that
> into account.
>
> And this word most probably has been borrowed into Yeniseic where
> it is used to create Yeniseic hydronyms.
> Which causes a very huge mess if one is looking for Yeniseic
> homeland using that word (in fact a word and a LW that looks the
> same !) because this area is now stretching for the Volga to
> Mongolia !
Actually to Arizona, it seems.
http://www.uaf.edu/anlc/docs/vajda-2008.pdf
quote:
'A number of Yeniseic roots have final velar fricative /x/ in Kott or
Arin, but apical plosive /d/ in Ket/Yugh; cf. Kott -thex and Ket -tet
'poke, hit endwise using a long object'. Some of the Ket/Yugh roots
show an irregular morphophonemic alternation between d and velar G or
k when a plural suffix is added: Ket -tet vs. -teG-in (in verb forms
with a plural subject); also Ket di't 'spruce grouse', dekn, 'spruce
grouses'. This suggests that the final velar was original. Na-Dene
cognates, where available, confirm this: PA *d&x 'grouse, spruce hen'
(Krauss & Leer 1981:190). Similarly, compare Kott -thex and Ket -tet
'poke, hit endwise using a long object' with the Proto-Athabaskan
cognate * ts&x 'poke, act endwise with a rigid stick-like object'
(Young & Morgan 1992:604).
This pattern only applies in the case of *x after an original back
vowel, since coda *x (as well as *xW and *x fronted to *s^ in
Proto-Yeniseic and finally to apical /s/ in Modern Ket. Once again,
irregularities in plural forms reveal which final s-sounds in Modern
Ket derive from original *s and which from a back fricative. The
reflexes of original /s/ never merge with the nasal ending, so that
the plural ending appears as a separate element: ki's 'foot' ->
kis-en, 'feet'. But /s/ derived from a back fricative invariably
causes assimilation of the nasal plural suffix, resulting in the
creation of a falling tone: Ket de's 'eye' -> dès 'eyes' (cf. PA ne'x
'eye'). Also cf. PA *de'xW' river, sandbar' (Krauss 2005:84) and Ket
se's 'river' but sàs 'rivers', where long distance assimilation
changed the onset *d to /s/ in Ket. The original form of 'river' was
apparently preserved in the extinct Yeniseic dialects of Western
Siberia, which left numerous hydronyms ending in -tes, -tis^,
including the famous Irtysh River.
A topic for future research involves the issue of long-distance (onset
+ coda) consonant harmony in early Yeniseic. The Yeniseic cognates for
'river', which appear in hydronyms over vast stretches of western and
central Siberia, show various alternations involving sibilants and
/d/: cf. Ket se's, Yugh c^es, as well as tes ~ tis from at least one
of not several undocumented Yeniseic languages of western Siberia. Too
few words show this alternation to be clear on the nature of the
assimilation, though it most likely preceded from coda to onset, at
least in Ket and Yugh, since the onset correspondence of Ket se's and
Yugh c^es is unique to this word. The final vowel, as well as the
anomalous consonant in Kott/Assan cognates Kott s^eti and Assan c^eti
'river' appear to derive from a suffix /ti/ (This vowel elides when
'river' is the second component of a hydronym: Kott -s^et, Assan
-c^et, but remains in the plural of the free-standing nouns: Kott
s^ati, Assan -c^ati.). The Pumpokol det 'river' shows a typical change
of /s/ to /t/. The original Proto-Yeniseic form for 'river' was
therefore probably something like
*deis^ or *dais and is a probable cognate to PA *de'xW 'river,
sandbar' (Krauss 2005:84), which appears in the combining form
-dez^W&` in river names of Athabaskan provenance across a broad area
of north central Canada. See Kari (1996:260) for a superb discussion
of Northern Athabaskan hydronyms.'
The "river" word is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeniseian_languages
For any of the proposed proto-forms for this Yeniseian "river,
sandbar", Uralic sose (sase) "Schneebrei; schwammig, porös (Knochen,
Baum)" would make sense as a loan, adapted to Uralic phonologigical
constraints (note that both forms have 'ablaut').
As for the strange double semantics "carcass; brittle ice" an exact
counterpart exists in Danish (pt. II):
DEO:
Skrog et 'krop; skelet; kernehus; skibslegeme; sølle person';
ænyda. skrog, skraag, no. skrog, skrov.
Egl. vistnok to forsk. ord:
I. En sideform til sv. dial. skrokk 'skrog', oldnord. skrokkr m.
'krop, klodset person, skrog';
af urnord. *skrunkaR, der ligesom da. dial. skrunken 'indskrumpet'
(s.d.), oldnord. skrukka 'gammel, rynket kone' hører til sa. rod som
II. rynke.
2. En form modsv. no. skrov 'skrog; åbnet dyrekrop; ngt. skrøbeligt',
sv. skrov 'krop, dyrekrop, skrog, skrummel; ru overflade (af is)', vel
af germ. *skruB-, ie. *skrup-, hvis videre forb. er usikker. Jf.
skroget.'
Hellquist wants to separate the meanings completely:
http://runeberg.org/display.pl?mode=facsimile&work=svetym&page=0839
But an if we assume a loan, a match seems to be present in
Ordbog over det danske Sprog
'Skodse. + Skotse, se u. Isskosse. nu sj. Skaasse.
Krist.JyA.Till.5.Afd.l20(jf. u. Is-skosse). Skaadse. POWalløe.Dagb.110.
ogs. Sko(d)s, [obsolete] Skots, se u. Isskosse;. flt. -r.
(vistnok fra holl. scho(t)s (nordfris. skos, nt. (flt.) schussen),- et
andet ord (jf. holl. schors, f., bark, [obsolete] i bet. isskorpe,
isflage, af oldfr. escorce, lat. cortex, se Kork) er vel bornh.
(is)skors, n., isflage (BornhHaandvEr.43.45. 58. BornhOS.);
sml. endvidere (i sa. bet.) Kosse, II. Skodde (Skotte, Skode, Skud),
I. Skolle)
1) (især marit.) stykke ell. tyk flage af is; dels om større, drivende
isflage, dels (sjældnere) om mindre, knuste brokker af is (der danner
grødis), vi (mødte) endeel Skaadser og tillige nattelagt Iis.
POWalløe.Dagb.110. herind driver.. Vestisens tunge, aargamle Skosser.
KnudRasm. G. 45. Skodser betyder itu-brudt Is, ikke store Flager, men
smaa knoldede Isblokke. BerlTid.11/7 l921.Aft.3.sp.l.
2) (geol., nu næppe br.) om stort sammenhængende parti ("flage") af
jordskorpen, der har modstaaet senere omdannelser. Alpe- og
Karpatherlandet danner, geologisk set, det unge Europa". Ældgamle
Jordskodser mangle vel ikke her, men disse Egnes typiske
Overfladeform, de skarpt skaarne Kædebjærge, ere dog Nyskabninger.
Sal.VI.277.'
And note here Dutch schaatsen (cf. schots above) "to skate", and
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/60087
plus Sw. skjuts (now mostly ride n., as in being offered a ride)
http://runeberg.org/display.pl?mode=facsimile&work=svetym&page=0827
Language of geminate auslaut variation -nt-/-tt-/-ts- and root -a/-u-
ablaut of the ar-/ur-language. Ir doesn' get much better than that.
So it's "(move (fast) in/on) thin ice"?
Perhaps we would the have solved the riddle of the Gmc. "shoe" word.
UEW
's´ona 'Schlitten' FU
lapp. (T. I. Itk., WbKKlp. 690)
T t's^´i&n,n,V,
Kld. t's^´u&n,n,e, 'bootförmiger Lappenschlitten' (> kar. tsuna),
?(T. I. Itk., WbKKlp. 638)
Ko. P tsu:n,e, Kld. t's´´un,n, 'Rentierschlitten von karelischer Art
(Ko. P), russischer Schlitten (Kld.)' |
wog. (Kann., mitg. Liim.: MSFOu. 127:120)
TJ s^on 'Schlitten', (Kann.: FUF 17:85)
KU son: jojt&x s. 'Lastschlitten',
(Kann.Liim.: MSFOu. 134:176) P s^un 'Schlitten',
(Kann., mitg. Stein., WogVok. 275) So. sun.
Vgl. alt.:
tat c^ana,
s^or. s^anak,
türkm. s^a:na,
tschuw. s´ona 'Schlitten';
mong. c^ana 'sleigh, ski, snowshoes'.
Möglicherweise ist lapp. Ko. P tsu:n,e 'Rentierschlitten von
karelischer Art' die Übernahme des russ. dial. c^uni 'Rentierschlitten
mit hohem Ständer', das wiederum möglicherweise aus dem lapp. (vgl.
Kld. t's^´u&n,n,e 'bootförmiger Lappenschlitten") ins Russ. gelangte.
Das von Serebrennikov (ALH 15:300) mit dem wog. Wort
zusammensgestellre jur. (155) O xan, P kan 'Schlitten' gehört nicht
hierher, da der anlautende Konsonant auf ursprüngliches *k zurückgeht.'
Side remarks:
Ir-tys^ is "river Ir"? As in River Or-pe?
'Tixij Don' is a misunderstanding of 'Don tis^', River Don (the
epithet appears in bylinas)?
Torsten