Re: Sharp

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Arnaud Fournet" <fournet.arnaud@...>
wrote:

>
>
> UEW:
> karwa 'bitter, scharf; bitter sein, brennen, prickeln' FU
> Finn. karvas (Gen. karvaan)
> 'bitter, schmerzlich, scharf',
> karvastele- 'brennen, stechen, schmerzen'
> (> lapp. L ka:rve:s 'bitter, herb im Geschmack') |
>
> wotj.
> S kurit 'scharf, beißend (an Geschmack: wie z. B. Rettich,
> Branntwein, Rauch); bitter, Bitterkeit',
> (Wichm.) G kurît 'bitter, scharf schmeckend' |
>
> syrj.
> S kurid, P kurit, P kurö.t 'bitter (S P PO); Bitterkeit, bitterer
> Geschmack (S P)' |
>
> ostj. (334-5)
> V Vj. kor&G- 'brennen, prickeln (Branntwein, Salz in einer Wunde u.
> a.) (V), schmerzen, weh tun (Vj.)',
> V kor&Gt ul 'kislaja jagoda',
> V korwan, 'brennend (zuweilen auch vom Branntwein)'.
>
> Finn. s und perm. it, id sind Ableitungssuffixe.
> Das ostj. Wort gehört - im Gegensatz zu Kálmán (MNy. 59: 346) -
> nicht in die Familie von *korpe 'brennen ...' FW, ?FU, ?U.
> Die Bedeutungen 'bitter, scharf -> 'brennen, schmerzen' dienen zur
> Bezeichnung ähnlicher physiologischen Empfindungen; damit kann man
> den obigen Bedeutungswandel erklären.
> Nomen-Verbum.
> ...
>
> korpe- 'brennen, verbrannt werden, versengt werden' FW, ?FU, ?U
>
> Finn. korpea-, korventa-, korvetta-
> 'sengen, versengen, brennend gar od. reif machen, brennend
> schmerzen';
> est. kõrb (Gen. kõrve) 'Versengen, Anbrennen',
> kõrbe- 'anbrennen, brennen (intr.)' |
>
> lapp.
> N guor'bâ- -rb- 'be scorched; lose hair by having it rubbed away;
> get very much cropped, get overcropped,
> L kuor'pa- 'durch Waldbrand verheert werden; ohne zu Ende gebrannt
> zu haben, erlöschen (von einem Feuer; so daß halbverbrannte
> Holzstücke übrig bleiben)' |
>
> mord.
> E kurva- 'lodern, lodernd brennen',
> E kurvas´t´e-, kirvas´t´e-, kras´t´i-,
> M korväs´t´e- 'anzünden' |
>
> ? ung. hërvad- (dial. hirvad-) 'welken, verwelken, dürr od. welk
> werden, verdorren' ||
>
> ? sam. selk. NP kuurra-, OO kuura- 'sengen (Holz)'.
>
>
> So the old low-tech sense "singe, sharpen by burning" exists in
> Finno-Ugric, possible in Uralic, while it is going out of fashion in
> Germanic. That seems to point to FU being the donor here too.
>
> ==========
>
> There are at least two roots "bitter" and "to burn".

Yes, in the UEW, and they stress it. But if UEW can't find a way to
connect them, who am I to try? I must then conclude that they are
loans there too. BTW, that pre-stop nasal infix Schrijver postulated
for his language of geminates seems to appear in a lotr of double
roots in the UEW, with no explanation as to hoe they are related. That
smells of loan too.

If you want to know the connection between "bitter" and "burn" check
the Kuhn text. Basically he's saying that the old style of sharpening
a spear was through singeing it. Try it with a wooden match, it works
the same way.

> It's unclear how Moksha krvast- could really be cognate with
> Finnish karv or korv-
> This really looks strange.

Could you be more specific? That Erzya kurva- "blaze" and kurvas´t´e-
"light fire" should be related doesn't seem particularly strange to
me, even though I don't know that -s´t´e- suffix

>
>
> As for Arnaud's objection H1 in
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/49816
> it doesn't apply here, since the word is substrate in Germanic, and
> thus the geographical extension of Germanic becomes irrelevant;
> obviously that substrate reached all the way to that Atlantic coast.
>
> ======
>
> Obviously !?
>
> Which substrate ?

If I should give it a name, I'd say Venetic/Urnfeld.

> To the Atlantic coast ?

You have heard of the Atlantic Ocean?


Torsten