* Re: Push (3)

From: The Egyptian Chronicles
Message: 62447
Date: 2009-01-10

  
 
Brian wrote:
 
I don't know whether he says so or not, but that's via OFr <pousser> 'to breathe with difficulty, to wheeze (~1150 for a horse, beg. 14th c. for a person), to exercise physical pressure on, to shove or jostle (a person or thing) (late 12th c.), later developing other senses.
 
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Ishinan's response:
 
What is the source for the "~1150" date you are quoting above? Can this source be accessed for the exact definition as well?
 
The reason I am asking is as follows: My understanding is that the Old French term you are quoting is OF. pourcif, poulsif, the modern French «poussif»  cf. «pursy and pursif »  or short-winded (see Skeat, An Etymological dictionary of the English language  p. 480) which means: not breathing or able to breathe except with difficulty; "breathless from running"; also fat and short-breathed; fat, short, and thick; swelled with pampering; as, pursy insolence. 
 
In French it was first applied to horses (Dyspnée du cheval) and later extended to humans and further applied to a disease of wine «POUSSÉ: Du vin qui se gâte par une chaleur qui le fait fermenter hors de saison» (Cours compl. d'agric., X, p.359b). Recently used to describe a decrepit car, or engine (en parlant d'un véhicule, d'un moteur. Qui a de la peine à avancer).
 
BTW, there is also a third unrelated term which means dust in French:  «pousse». Étymol. et Hist. 1363 poulce «poussière de certaines substances» (Compt. de P. Culdoe ds Hist. litt. de la Fr., XXIV, 651 ds Gdf. Compl.). Dér. fém. de l'a. fr. pous (v. poussière). 
 
Unfortunately, all these definitions, along with «pousser» (to grow in French), have nothing to do with the  English sense of pushing, nor can they be considered a logical step toward the development of the English «push». In fact, asthma, or breathless from running can be provoked by many reasons other than the result of pushing. It is a well known fact that some people are susceptible to developing asthma from simply laughing or inhaling hay or dust, in this case, perhaps, related to (poussière)? Though etymology is not an exact science, it still requires rational explanation and accurate information.  These perquisites seem to be lacking in the O.Fr. example you have given.
 
According to my source (Centre national de ressources textuelles at lexicales), the French definition of your suggested term and the date of its first occurrence in 1280 (and not~1150) is as follows.
 
 
Found in Jehan et Blonde, poems and songs written by a royal official; Philippe De Remi Beaumanoir (born in the early part of the 13th century and died in 1296). The poems tell the story of a young man, the son of an impoverished knight, who succeeds through his wits and his chivalric abilities in marrying the daughter of the earl of Oxford. (Philippe de Beaumanoir, Jehan et Blonde, 2440 ds T.-L.)
 
 
DEFINITION IN FRENCH «qui éprouve des difficultés de respiration»qui succède toujours à une affection pulmonaire aiguë, grave (...) est caractérisée par quatre signes principaux: absence de fièvre, toux, atténuation du murmure vésiculaire et le soubresaut. Se dit d'un cheval qui a une respiration difficile, Qui se fait avec difficulté, sans inspiration, sans élan. Like in the case of the Latin definitions, I am afraid,  the O.Fr. example lacks the adequate semantic of the English  «push» or even Middle French pousser (dated the end of the 14th c.): «exercer une pression sur une chose pour la déplacer» i.e. To apply pressure against, for the purpose of moving: To bear hard upon; to press against something in order to move it forward or aside. 
POUSSER: Prononc. et Orth.: [puse], (il) pousse [pus]. Homon. pouce, poussa, poussah. . Étymol. et Hist. A. 1. Fin xives. «exercer une pression sur une chose pour la déplacer» (Froissart, Chroniques, éd. G. Raynaud, t.9, p.248). Froissart's Chronicle was written in French by Jehan  (Jean) Froissart. It covers the years 1322 until 1400 and describes the lead up to, and the progress of, the first half of the Hundred Years' War.
 
If you have a source that contradicts these facts, would you kindly share it. I'll be most grateful.
  
Moreover, as I previously stated in an earlier message, the first occurrence with the sense of «push»  in Middle French is pouce, poussa, poussah, and dates from the end of the 14 th c. While the Middle English example is circa a century earlier. Based on this discrepancy, it would seem that the English might be from another source than the Middle French «pouce, poussa, poussah». 
 
All of these facts point to a possible convergence of several sources. I suggested «poach »  to push, poke, from M.Fr. pocher to thrust, push, but  Torsten pointed out that according to Kuhn's criteria, the word can't be Germanic because in Germanic, a p- would be from PIE b. In addition, in a more recent message today, Torsten suggested: Danish, afpudse:
 
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62438
 
 
Another suggestion could be «poke» which has the same meaning of trust or push; ME. «poken» in Chaucer (c. 1343 – 1400). According to Skeat, it is of Celtic origin cf. Gael »puc».  Others have suggested yet another source: M.L.G. «poken» "to stick with a knife" from P.Gmc. base *puk-.
 
A third suggestion was offered by Peter P., this time from a Finnish source: «puskea» -to push < PFU *puske -push -stab. It would be nice to have a date for his suggestion and to compare it with the other viable sources.
 
At any rate, it is quite revealing that all the meanings of these suggested sources for «push» seem to occur in different languages around roughly the same time, i.e. in the 14 th c. 
 
Despite the great temptation to attribute it to Latin, none of these examples have anything to do with the Classical pulso~are & pulsus.  The 10 definitions of the Classical terms pulso~are & pulsus were quoted verbatim, in my previous message, from "The Oxford Classical Latin Dictionary"
 
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62394
 

Ishinan
 
1/10/2009