Re: Reindeer: another ideer

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Arnaud Fournet" <fournet.arnaud@...>
wrote:

>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andrew Jarrette" <anjarrette@...>
>
> >
> > That's an interesting point of view.
> > I'm afraid it tells more about the way you inadequately perceive

French

> > than about what French really is.
> > Personally, I would equate "bonne idée" with "bawn eedeh"
>
> I know how French is _supposed_ to be pronounced, but I'm telling you
> what I've _heard_. Of course, I've heard much more Québécois than
> Parisian or France French, so that could have something to do with it.
> The vast majority of North Americans would pronounce "bawn" with the
> vowel you formerly had in <pas> and <pâte>, not with something that
> sounds like French /O/.
> British /O/ in <pawn> is long, so it doesn't sound as much like

French /O/

> =====
> Sorry but it does.
> British RP pawn rhymes with bonne.
> The slight difference is RP has a kind of "pharyngeal tension" in

the aw

> that does not exist in the o of bonne.
> A.

I guess certain sounds sound different to a French ear than they do to
an English ear. As an English-speaking person who lives in a
bilingual city, I can tell you that "bonne" as pronounced by French
speakers here does not sound to my ear like RP "pawn" (or better
"born"), I would never say they rhyme, even if they are produced
similarly. RP "pawn" and "born" usually have a much longer vowel and
many speakers pronounce this vowel so rounded that it starts to
approach /u:/ in its phonetic effect on me (perhaps making up for the
fact that many British, at least from the London area, pronounce /u:/
with more or less unrounded lips). Since childhood I have noticed
that when local French speakers pronounce "bonne", it sounds like they
are saying English "bun" somewhat (not the same, of course). Anyway,
you can reject all of what I have said here, I'm just trying to defend
my position on this matter.

> =====
> as does /V/ in <bun> in North America
> (British often use a more open /V/ than North Americans which
> approaches /a/, of course with much dialectal variation). And the
> last syllable of "eedeh" would represent French <idais>, not <idée>.
> ====
> idais and idée are homophonous for most people,
> and for me to start with.
> A.
> =====

I did not know that. So you pronounce "chanter" and "chantait"
identically? But something spelled "eedeh" in English would not sound
to me like what I hear when French people pronounce <idée>, I do not
hear <é> ([e]) as what I would spell <eh> ([E]) (excluding the
interjection <eh?> [eI] of course, which is an exception), I hear a
sound that I identify with our [eI] (which my parents pronounce as
[e:], closer to your <é>).

>
> > I would never equate the u in bunny with the o of bonne.
> > In general, French people equate the u in bunny with eu not o.
>
> But French eu is front, while u in bunny is back (with regional
> variation, some pronouncing it more central, and sometimes higher, as
> e.g. in Texas). And eu has some degree of rounding, while u in bunny
> has none (except in Northern England where it is /U/).
> =======
> Yes beut most pipol still say beunny with eu.
> We are waiting for you to speak English the way we do !!
> A.
> =====
>
> Whenever I
> listen to French TV stations here in Ottawa, the Québécois /O/ always
> reminds me of our /V/ (at least in typical Canadian pronunciation),
> although they are certainly not exactly the same. It has always made
> that impression on me, something I always noticed. The French eu comes
> closest to North American /U/ (as in <put>), if one has to find the
> nearest English sound, in my opinion, since this /U/ is centralized to
> a degree, with some people pronouncing it more central than back.
> =======
>
> My goodness,
> put could never be confused with peut.
>
> You must be aware that Quebecois French does not distinguish a and o

in many

> positions,
> especially in the context CvC#
> bord and barre are homophonous for most people.
> although beau and bas are not.
> What you take for /o/ is in fact a kind of /a/.
> A.

I was talking about Québécois /O/ in words like "bonne" and "botte",
not before /R/. I am aware that the mid vowels are all lowered before
/R/ in Québécois.

> > I disagree with your approach that French /o/ is not rounded
>
> I did not say it is _not_ rounded, I said it is "a bit less rounded
> than /O/ in German or Slavic". But still rounded.
> =====
> Maybe it's more centralised than less rounded.
> Apart from ou which is probably the only really back vowel,
> all others are nearly central and front.
> It's a feature of French that the vowel system is somehow shifted to

the

> front.
> with "back" vowels being more central than really back.
> A.
> =====

Maybe that's it then, maybe it's not that /O/ is less rounded, it's
that it's somewhat centralized.

Andrew