From: Arnaud Fournet
Message: 62206
Date: 2008-12-20
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Jarrette" <anjarrette@...>
>
> That's an interesting point of view.
> I'm afraid it tells more about the way you inadequately perceive French
> than about what French really is.
> Personally, I would equate "bonne idée" with "bawn eedeh"
I know how French is _supposed_ to be pronounced, but I'm telling you
what I've _heard_. Of course, I've heard much more Québécois than
Parisian or France French, so that could have something to do with it.
The vast majority of North Americans would pronounce "bawn" with the
vowel you formerly had in <pas> and <pâte>, not with something that
sounds like French /O/.
British /O/ in <pawn> is long, so it doesn't sound as much like French /O/
=====
Sorry but it does.
British RP pawn rhymes with bonne.
The slight difference is RP has a kind of "pharyngeal tension" in the aw
that does not exist in the o of bonne.
A.
=====
as does /V/ in <bun> in North America
(British often use a more open /V/ than North Americans which
approaches /a/, of course with much dialectal variation). And the
last syllable of "eedeh" would represent French <idais>, not <idée>.
====
idais and idée are homophonous for most people,
and for me to start with.
A.
=====
> I would never equate the u in bunny with the o of bonne.
> In general, French people equate the u in bunny with eu not o.
But French eu is front, while u in bunny is back (with regional
variation, some pronouncing it more central, and sometimes higher, as
e.g. in Texas). And eu has some degree of rounding, while u in bunny
has none (except in Northern England where it is /U/).
=======
Yes beut most pipol still say beunny with eu.
We are waiting for you to speak English the way we do !!
A.
=====
Whenever I
listen to French TV stations here in Ottawa, the Québécois /O/ always
reminds me of our /V/ (at least in typical Canadian pronunciation),
although they are certainly not exactly the same. It has always made
that impression on me, something I always noticed. The French eu comes
closest to North American /U/ (as in <put>), if one has to find the
nearest English sound, in my opinion, since this /U/ is centralized to
a degree, with some people pronouncing it more central than back.
=======
My goodness,
put could never be confused with peut.
You must be aware that Quebecois French does not distinguish a and o in many
positions,
especially in the context CvC#
bord and barre are homophonous for most people.
although beau and bas are not.
What you take for /o/ is in fact a kind of /a/.
A.
> I disagree with your approach that French /o/ is not rounded
I did not say it is _not_ rounded, I said it is "a bit less rounded
than /O/ in German or Slavic". But still rounded.
=====
Maybe it's more centralised than less rounded.
Apart from ou which is probably the only really back vowel,
all others are nearly central and front.
It's a feature of French that the vowel system is somehow shifted to the
front.
with "back" vowels being more central than really back.
A.
=====