Re: Reindeer: another ideer

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Arnaud Fournet" <fournet.arnaud@...>
wrote:

>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andrew Jarrette" <anjarrette@...>>
> > >
> > A new I deer?
> > Bunny day, as they say in French
> >
> > ========
> >
> > Bunny day, as they say in French
> >
> > Could you explain, s'il vous plait ?
> >
> > Je n'ai rien compris.
> >
> > A.
> >
>
> "Bonne idée" as pronounced in French sounds almost the same as "Bunny
> day" as pronounced in English. The French /O/ sounds rather similar
> to the English /V/ (as in <cut>), I've often found, i.e. French /O/ is
> a bit less rounded than in other languages such as German or Slavic.
> I could be wrong though.
> Rick, sorry to steal your thunder if I've replied before you.
>
> Andrew
> ========
>
> That's an interesting point of view.
> I'm afraid it tells more about the way you inadequately perceive French
> than about what French really is.
> Personally, I would equate "bonne idée" with "bawn eedeh"

I know how French is _supposed_ to be pronounced, but I'm telling you
what I've _heard_. Of course, I've heard much more Québécois than
Parisian or France French, so that could have something to do with it.
The vast majority of North Americans would pronounce "bawn" with the
vowel you formerly had in <pas> and <pâte>, not with something that
sounds like French /O/. British /O/ in <pawn> is long, so it doesn't
sound as much like French /O/ as does /V/ in <bun> in North America
(British often use a more open /V/ than North Americans which
approaches /a/, of course with much dialectal variation). And the
last syllable of "eedeh" would represent French <idais>, not <idée>.

> To be frank, I feel like the most important syllable in "bonne idée"

is the

> first "i-(dée)"
> which explains I did not get it at all
> while bunny day with -y in bunny is the weakest.

You can't get a perfect match in something that is meant to be a joke.

> I would never equate the u in bunny with the o of bonne.
> In general, French people equate the u in bunny with eu not o.

But French eu is front, while u in bunny is back (with regional
variation, some pronouncing it more central, and sometimes higher, as
e.g. in Texas). And eu has some degree of rounding, while u in bunny
has none (except in Northern England where it is /U/). Whenever I
listen to French TV stations here in Ottawa, the Québécois /O/ always
reminds me of our /V/ (at least in typical Canadian pronunciation),
although they are certainly not exactly the same. It has always made
that impression on me, something I always noticed. The French eu comes
closest to North American /U/ (as in <put>), if one has to find the
nearest English sound, in my opinion, since this /U/ is centralized to
a degree, with some people pronouncing it more central than back.

> Fun in English and German Föhn sound the same
> when pronounced with French phonological system.
> And Bonne (idée) would rhyme with German Bonn (ex-capital).
>
> I disagree with your approach that French /o/ is not rounded

I did not say it is _not_ rounded, I said it is "a bit less rounded
than /O/ in German or Slavic". But still rounded.

> Bob Dylan's way of saying "alOne" is the clOsest way to standard

French /o/.

> I would agree that French eu is only weakly rounded
> and that also explains why modern French "schwa" is eu.
> The problem with German öh and oh is these vowels are somehow

over-heavily

> rounded and long (from the French PofV)
>
> Some people in Paris suburbs do not make a clear difference between

eu and

> o,
> but most people in France do.
>
> A.
>