From: Rick McCallister
Message: 61527
Date: 2008-11-11
> From: the_egyptian_chronicles <the_egyptian_chronicles@...>Shukran, ya sheykh! Spanish et al. calzón does come from calza but I've heard the Arabic form with -un --Is it plural?
> Subject: [tied] FYI: BATT, QAMIYS, SABAT, QALSAH & FUSTAN was: oldest places.......
> To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 7:42 PM
> I have no idea who introduced this thread, so my sincere
> apologies for
> omitting the author's name: zapato/s.abat;
> fustán/fustan
> camisa/qamis (< Celtic supposedly) calzón/kalsun (sp?
> --I don't know
> if qaf and s.ad or not) etc. As far as I know these are
> all over
> Arabic and some items have spread to Hindi-Urdu, etc. e.g.
> kamis. I use
> cognate here just mean "common origin" whether as
> loan words from one to
> the other or whatnot. Spanish camisa, French chemise,
> Italian camincia
> are usually ascribed to Celtic, see German Hemd (vel sim)
> and some
> Vulgar Latin term is responsible for this word in Arabic et
> al. The
> others are probably mainly from vulgar Latin. Fustán
> "night gown"
> (Arabic fustan "dress") is the only one I'd
> guess as from Arabic to
> Spanish Arnaud answered: I can't find them in
> Kazimirski so I
> don't think they are "Arabic" and therefore
> anything like "cognate".
> ........ I'm afraid you don't know _early_
> enough. None of these words
> belong to Classical Arabic. The claim the direction of
> borrowing should
> be from Arabic to anything else seems highly suspect. A
> euphemism for
> definitely impossible. Arabic qamîs used to mean
> "cloth, material
> to make clothes with" It's a chance look-alike
> with camisia "shirt"
> Fustân does not exist in Classical Arabic and only in
> modern Arabic.
> There is nothing like kals(.)un or qals(.)un in either
> classical or
> modern Arabic. I guess it would be nice if you could
> provide some
> references.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------\
> ------------- Ishinan's response:
> Actually, the following
> three words: batt, qamiys and sabat, are from Classical
> Arabic. Before
> the 7th century and certainly before the Arabs set foot on
> Western
> Europe in 711 C.E. They are found in the Lisan al-`Arab,
> the Classical
> Arabic lexicon par excellence. btt (batt); a cloak
> Reference: Lisan
> al-`Arab vol. I, p. 155. ------------------------------
> qmys
> (qamiys); a shirt, the cover of the ka`bah Reference:
> Lisan al-`Arab
> vol. V, p. 162. to ------> Med. Latin Camisia (BTW not
> found in
> Classical Latin), Fr. Chemise.
> ------------------------------ sbt
> (sabat) sandals, shoes, footwear. Reference: Lisan
> al-`Arab vol. III,
> p. 80. to ------> Sp. Zapato and Fr. savat.
> ------------------------------ WHILE THE FOLLOWING
> WORDS ARE POST
> CLASSICAL ARABIC qls-h (qalsah) undergarment.
> Post-Classical Arabic,
> from Persian into (mid Arabic) to -------> Sp. Calzas
> tights and dim.
> calzón underwear, knickers.
> __________________________________________ Fstan (Fustan)
> a dress, or
> a skirt. Post-Classical Arabic, from Turkish into (mid
> Arabic), Modern
> Arabic fustan is with a regular t unlike Mid Arabic which
> had an
> emphatic t . ___________________________________________
> All these
> lexical definitions can be seen at the following URL:
> http://www.theegyptianchronicles.com/ANEW/RESPONSE14.html
> <wlmailhtml:{6518D7F9-4F26-438C-9B94-90EEF019F0C0}mid://00000627/!x-usc:\
> http://www.theegyptianchronicles.com/ANEW/RESPONSE14.html>
> Ishinan