FYI: BATT, QAMIYS, SABAT, QALSAH & FUSTAN was: oldest places.......

From: the_egyptian_chronicles
Message: 61525
Date: 2008-11-11


I have no idea who introduced this thread,  so my sincere apologies for omitting the author's name:
 
 
 
zapato/s.abat; fustán/fustan camisa/qamis (< Celtic supposedly) calzón/kalsun (sp? --I don't know if qaf and s.ad or not) etc.
 
As far as I know these are all over Arabic and some items have spread to Hindi-Urdu, etc. e.g. kamis. I use cognate here just mean "common origin" whether as loan words from one to the other or whatnot. Spanish camisa, French chemise, Italian camincia are usually ascribed to Celtic, see German Hemd (vel sim) and some Vulgar Latin term is responsible for this word in Arabic et al. The others are probably mainly from vulgar Latin. Fustán "night gown"  (Arabic fustan "dress") is the only one I'd guess as from Arabic to Spanish
 
 
Arnaud answered:
 
I can't find them in Kazimirski so I don't think they are "Arabic" and therefore anything like "cognate".
 
........
 
I'm afraid you don't know _early_ enough. None of these words belong to Classical Arabic. The claim the direction of borrowing should be from Arabic to anything else seems highly suspect. A euphemism for definitely impossible.
 
Arabic qamîs used to mean "cloth, material to make clothes with" It's a chance look-alike with camisia "shirt" Fustân does not exist in Classical Arabic and only in modern Arabic.
 
There is nothing like kals(.)un or qals(.)un in either classical or modern Arabic.
 
I guess it would be nice if you could provide some references.
 
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Ishinan's  response:
 
Actually, the following three words:  batt, qamiys and sabat, are from Classical Arabic.  Before the 7th century and certainly before the Arabs set foot on Western Europe in 711 C.E. They are found in the Lisan al-`Arab, the Classical Arabic lexicon par excellence.
 
btt (batt); a cloak 
Reference: Lisan al-`Arab vol. I, p. 155.
 
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qmys (qamiys);  a shirt, the cover of the ka`bah
Reference: Lisan al-`Arab vol. V, p. 162.
to ------> Med. Latin  Camisia (BTW not found in Classical Latin), Fr. Chemise.
 
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sbt (sabat) sandals, shoes, footwear. 
Reference: Lisan al-`Arab vol. III, p. 80. 
 to ------>  Sp. Zapato and  Fr. savat.
 
 
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WHILE THE FOLLOWING WORDS ARE POST CLASSICAL ARABIC
 
qls-h (qalsah) undergarment. 
Post-Classical Arabic, from Persian into (mid Arabic)
to -------> Sp. Calzas  tights and dim. calzón underwear, knickers. 
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Fstan (Fustan) a dress, or a skirt. 
Post-Classical Arabic, from Turkish into (mid Arabic), Modern Arabic fustan
is with a regular t unlike Mid Arabic which had an emphatic  t .
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All these lexical definitions can be seen at the following URL:
 
http://www.theegyptianchronicles.com/ANEW/RESPONSE14.html
 
 
Ishinan