From: Rick McCallister
Message: 61243
Date: 2008-11-02
> From: Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arnaud@...>You must strike a dashing figure with your w-less French: "/ui, ui, c@ sõ lE troy loy de l'oy/"
> Subject: Re: Re[2]: [tied] Re: [pieml] Labiovelars versus Palatals + Labiovelar Approximant
> To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 1:16 PM
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian M. Scott"
> <BMScott@...>
> >
> >>> (By the way, every serious linguistic
> description of
> >>> French that I've read gives French three
> glide phonemes,
> >>> /w/, /j/, and /turned-h/.)
> >
> >> What kind of serious linguistic descriptions ?
> >
> > The usual: outlines of phonology, morphology, and
> syntax,
> > often with a section on historical sources of the
> lexicon.
> >
> ========
> Smokescreen ?
> Nothing clear that can be checked.
> A.
> ========
>
> >
> >> A minimal pair made up of variants of the same
> word :
> >> Message 61150
> >>> In fact the consonantalization of the initial
> of <oui>
> >>> was already accepted by the 16th century
> grammarians,
> >>> though fluctuations between /wi/ and /ui/
> continued into
> >>> modern French (Pope, §241).
> >
> >> To the beginner :
> >> A minimal pair must be made up of two different
> words.
> >> <oui> /ui/ being [wi] or [ui] does not prove
> /w/ exists.
> >
> > <sigh> Obviously I should have written more.
> You
> > completely missed the point: that was not offered as a
> > minimal pair. The relevant part of the sentence is
> the
> > first part; the second was included in the interests
> of
> > honesty, as it somewhat weakens the force of the first
> part.
> > Pope's §241 in full shows that an analysis of
> French that
> > distinguishes /u/ and /w/ has been possible at least
> since
> > the 16th century.
> >
> ==========
>
> You have a very strange way of drawing this paragraph §241
> in the direction
> that suites your unproved and inadequate approach.
>
> She speaks of "countertonic vowel" : this is what
> you translate as /w/ !!
> Fluctuations [..] continued into Modern French
> reduction of syllabic value.
>
> There's no /w/ or whatever.
> This is your personal over-interpretation.
> Read it again.
>
> Arnaud