On 2008-10-16 23:49, Francesco Brighenti wrote:
> However, let me again quote Starostin & Lubotsky in this connection
> because they propose a structurally similar (viz., root + *-ter-
> suffix) etymology for Old Iranian a:tar, yet based on a different IE
> root, *h2weh1- 'to blow' -- see what happens by just inserting a *-w-
> into the previous root!(:^)):
Francesco, what do you take me for? ;). There is a small but interesting
literature on <a:tar->, and I'm aware of it, since I've read it. The
*-s- enlargement, even if its function isn't clear, is a respectable
morpheme; we find it in *pah2-s- (vs. bare *pah2-), *h2weg-s- (vs.
h2aug-) and in many other roots. Both *h2ah1- and *h2ah1s- are actually
attested as verbs, and no formal or semantic prestidigitation is
required to account for the meaning of *h2ah1-t(o)r- as, say, 'altar
fire'; there are also well-known derivatives of *h2ah1s- meaning
'fire-altar', 'hearth', 'ashes', 'star' (not to mention other hot or
glowing things). The derivation from *h2weh1-, as you certainly realise,
can't be taken seriously, but the one I cited is entirely kosher; even
LIV recognises h2ah1- as the probable base of <a:tar->.
> Avestan a:tar...'fire'...;
> Armenian airem 'burns, lights' (due to form *air- from *a:te:r);
> Serbian vatra 'fire', Ukrainian vaìtra 'fire, stove', Polish
> vatra 'straw cinder' are borrowed... from Rumanian vatra 'stove',
> [this] again from Albanian (Geg votrë, votër with v-suggestion
> before Albanian ot- from *a:t-, perhaps Iranian loanword).
The Polish gloss is as strange as the Ukrainian one. In the highland
dialects of southern Poland, where it occurs, <watra> (sic) means 'a
fire (out in the open air), bonfire'. _Of course_ it's a Romanian loan
(and Romanian has it from Albanian). However, an Iranian loan in
Albanian, of all languages, would be a strange thing to find, and I
would like to see some justification for such a claim. When I mentioned
traces of *h2ah1-tro/ah2- in Slavic, I meant things like Russ.CS
<obatriti seN> 'fire up', which (unlike <watra>) don't look like loans
from 15th c. Vlach settlers in the Carpathians. See a previous mention
of these words on the list, almost five years ago:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/28889
Piotr