Veneti (Was Re: Belgs)

> But are those Lechs 'proper' Slavs? Or they some precursor?
>
> ****GK: "Lyakhs" also from an earlier "Lend-" An appellative (or
> name if you prefer)

I do. Let me explain:
If I discuss the river names Drawa, Drama, Drwe,ta, they are toponyms
(hydronyms). If I then drag Germ. traben "trot" and Trabant "servant,
page; satellite" into the discussion, then those are appellatives.

> not known before historical Slavic times, thus not earlier than the
> 5th c. CE when Slavs replace Germanics (and Germanized elements) in
> Poland. The retroactive archaeology of Viatichia (an area south and
> east of Moscow) indicates a Baltic culture prior to the 6th c.CE.
> So if "Viat/Vent" was a Venetic borrowing in Poland, it was
> borrowed not earlier than the 5th c.CE and brought to Viatichia
> about the 7th c. CE.We have no evidence for anything more ancient
> on this particular issue.****

I don't understand your line of reasoning. Please explain.

> ...


> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_ Veneti#Historical_references
> > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Sea_Peoples
> > http://tinyurl. com/3wknsb
>
> ****GK: Nothing connectable to our European Veneti except one
> interesting little story about the Paphlagonian Eneti (but when did
> they arrive in Paphlagonia?) Antenor supposedly led the Trojan
> Eneti to Italy after the death of King PYLAEMENES, whence the Latin
> Veneti of the Adriatic. Connect this to the following passage in
> Shchukin (1997, sect. 4, pars. 61-62):
>
> "The legendary portion of the 'Lithuanian Chronicles' is beginning
> to acquire some interest. It speaks of a certain POLAMONIS, who
> fled to the Baltic shores with his family and 500 migrants to
> escape Nero's persecution. The sons of this rebel were the supposed
> founders of the Lithuanian state. In reality the establishment of
> Lithuanian statehood comes much later, possibly at the time of
> Charlemagne (ref. Ushinskas 1988). But the Polamonis legend might
> nevertheless correspond to certain political realities: Nero's
> persecution of various opposition groups, political,ideological,
> and religious, including the early Christians, clearly tookplace
> and are sufficiently well-known. // If this infiltration of certain
> warriors-traders-artisans, called Veneti, in a sense "vikings back
> to vikings", was a reality, then this would explain many processes
> which took place not only on the Baltic shores but in the rest of
> Eastern Europe".
> He then goes on to describe the relevant archaeology. Schukin thus
> seems to be arguing the thesis that ancient Veneti who spread all
> over Europe and beyond thousands of years earlier, "returned" in
> the 1rst c.CE.(long after having lost whatever was their original
> language)****

I don't know (yet) what you are arguing, but it seems to me the
addition of king Pylaemenes forces one to argue to accept either

1) that the author(s) of the Lithuanian Chronicles had read Pliny's
Natural History
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti#Historical_references
or Homer's Iliad (but why would they associate the Enetoi with
themselves?), or

2) that the Palemon story reflects a genuine memory of the return
home to the Adriatic by the (V)Enetoi, or

3) that 'Palemon' was one of the later Pylaemenes of Paphlagonia.

> And I think what happened in the first half of the first mill. CE is
> that Jastorf from the west, Balts and Slavs from the east encroached
> on the Veneti draw-boat river system (*dran,W- rivers)
>
> ****GK: If here the Veneti are the people of the Lusatian
> culture(and its successor Pomeranian culture) the first half of the
> first millennium BCE is too early. Before the Yastorf/Baltic pushes
> (which began in the 4th c. BCE) we have the devastating Scythian
> raids of the 6th and 5th cs. (no Slavs yet) These "Veneti/Venedi"
> were likely descendants of the original Veneti plus local cultures
> "infiltrated" by these.Their language is sometimes designated as
> "Illyrian"****
>
> until they
> strangled it, causing the Veneti to fall into poverty and
> brigandage,
>
> ****GK: The Baltic Veneti (or Venedi) participated in the
> Bastarnian south eastward push,and almost certainly constituted the
> upper class of the Zarubinian culture. They are also the element
> which left the so-called "Illyrian" and "Celto-Illyrian" hydronyms
> and toponyms in the Zarubinian area.****

I think you misread my 'CE' as 'BCE'.

BTW a general comment: the sources all hang together.
If we accept that the Adriatic Veneti are those Enetoi Homer
described, it follows they are ne of the sea peoples, if the sea
peoples were the peoples who participated in the siege of Troy and
lost control of their homelands in the process and there had to resort
to piracy in the West Indian style, even though their name is not one
of those we know the sea peoples had.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber#Origin_of_the_term
'The Baltic Lithuanian term for amber is Gintaras and Latvian
Dzintars. They and the Russian term yantarI) are thought to originate
from Phoenician jainitar (sea-resin).'


Torsten