From: Arnaud Fournet
Message: 60909
Date: 2008-10-15
----- Original Message -----
From: "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...>
> ==========
> I guess real historians like M. Knysh could say more.
> I read that before the start of the industrial revolution,
> England first knew an agricultural sharp increase of productivity,
> which had two consequences :
> - a brutal increase of the general population,
> hence a lot of people who could/had to move somewhere else.
> - a huge number of unemployed people
> who were later on employed in new industrial activities,
> that prior to that could not happen because there were nobody to
> work on that.
That makes no sense. Labor-saving devices are deployed because of a
shortage of working hands, not because of a surplus.
=======
Sorry,
but this is how things are explained.
The industrial revolution _first_ happened in England
_because_ it had been made possible to happen
_because_ majors advances in agricultural pratices had been made.
Unemployed workers in agriculture got employed in new industrial businesses.
Arnaud
============
> This first happened in England.
Communis opinio is that it didn't happen in Rome because they had
plenty of slaves, so why bother?
=======
Irrelevant.
See above.
Arnaud
==========
> I noticed You have some kind of recurrent hatred outbursts against
> Louis XIV and the Ancien Regime.
> but this problem of yours is irrelevant for most issues we discuss,
> including Veneti.
This is how Okulicz (p. 25) describes the same process, with other actors:
'Im Laufe des 2. Jhs. u.Z. verlor die samländische Kultur in
Zusammenhang mit der Durchschneidung der Bernsteinstraße infolge der
großen aus Pommern in südöstlicher Richtung ausgehenden gotischen
Expansion ihre weiten Verbindungen. Die archäologischen Spuren dieser
Wanderung findet man in der sog. Wielbark-Kultur (ehem.
Goto-Gepidisch), die eine sehr charakteristische Verbreitung aufwies.
Sie bildete einen schmalen Streifen, der von der unteren Weichsel über
das nördliche Masowien, Podlasie und Wolhynien führte. Die Völker
dieser Kultur übernahmen die Kontrolle über die Bernsteinstraße und
isolierten das ganze westbaltische Gebiet von der unmittelbaren
Einwirkung der römischen Donauprovinzen. In dieser Zeit wurde der Stil
der samländischen Kultur von den Siedlungen der Masurischen
Seenplatte, West- und Mittellitauens und Lettlands adoptiert. So
begann der lange Prozeß der Kulturintegration der westbaltischen und
der lettolitauischen Völker, der ununterbrochen bis zum frühen
Mittelalter dauerte.'
And I pointed out that this scenario played out once again between
Holland and France. As they say, for nations interests are permanent,
friends and enemies aren't.
Torsten
===========
I'm afraid I have understood about nothing in this.
I tend to believe that one of the major weaknesses of your line of thinking
is your tendency to deal with people and languages as if they were
_immanent_ entities, in complete disregard of conditions of ethnological
genesis.
Your obsessions about present-day geo-politics are irrelevant as regards the
past of Europe.
France, as a historical concept, does not make any sense before 1000 AD.
The fact that Okulicz may have the same weaknesses as you is no relief.
Your claim that you want to avoid a "grandiose" scheme about the past is a
hypocritical smoke-screen that allows you to indefinitely project into the
past ethno-linguistic entities such as "old-European" and "Veneti", that are
undescribed, uncharacterized, and therefore uncontrollable, undemonstrable
and unfalsifiable.
Arnaud
============