Re: Belgs

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> --- On Mon, 10/13/08, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
> Okulicz' scenario is so complicated I still struggle to comprehend it.
> Joz^ef S^avli/Matej Bor don't have any.
> Myself, I won't make up my mind before I get my head around the many
> details in Okulicz' scenario.
>
> Traditionally Venetic has been associated with Urnfield cultures.
>
> Torsten
>
> ****GK: From Shchukin (1997) "The birth of the Slavs", section 4,
> par. 56:
> "Toponyms with the root "vent","vend", "venn", "vind", and sim.,
> are generally scattered across Europe sufficiently widely,and this,
> as some contend, might witness that all "Veneti" are the remnants
> of some (the most frequent suggestion-- Illyrian) Old European
> populations, at one time inhabiting wide expanses of Europe
> (Okulicz 1984). A believable hypothesis, even if it has as yet no
> historical or archaeological confirmation."
>
> He goes on: (par. 57) "I can say nothing concerning the affinity or
> connection of the Adriatic and Armorican Veneti, systematic
> research on this issue being unknown to me. But the concentration
> of data on the Baltic and Adriatic Veneti, at the two ends of the
> Amber route, may not be sheer coincidence. K. Lamberg-Krolovski
> (1971) surmised as to this the possibility of a transference of the
> appellative along the Amber route. The amber traffickers being
> Adriatic Veneti, whose name was subsequently adopted by local
> populations. Such instances are known in history.

The problem is that not only the Wenet- name, but several river names
are identical too (in the Wenet- areas around Sambia and on the
Adria). That only happens if the language of those who lived on the
rivers, at least those who sailed of the rivers, were the same.

> Krolovski thought
> this might have occurred in the 9th-6th c. BCE, when the amber
> trade did indeed exist (Bouzek 1994). In truth, we have no data as
> to the existence of Baltic Veneti at such an early date.

We have literary evidence of the existence of Veneti there in historic
times, and of the archaeological continuity of those cultures where
those Veneti were placed by classical authors.

> I am therefore inclined to the thought that such a transference
> more likely occurred somewhat later, when the amber route was
> re-established by the special diplomatic efforts of Nero (Kolendo
> 1981, Shchukin 1994, Shchukin,in print).

The matching river names are Old European, a language which is
represented in river names in a much larger territory than just the
Baltic or Adriatic. I don't think a newly (re)established amber trade
would have caused the Veneti, by then Romans for several hundred
years, to apply the old names of their rivers to those on the amber coast.

> (par. 58) This may be supported by some archaeological arguments.
> From the mid 1rst c. AD begins the "golden age" of the Baltic,
> accompanied by an obvious cultural upswing (Okulicz 1973: 379)."

> He goes on to give many details. Incl. evidence as to population
> migrations from Roman territory into Lithuania...*****

Which Roman territories?


Torsten