From: george knysh
Message: 60468
Date: 2008-09-28
--- On Sat, 8/2/08, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
Here is my version.
I realized last night this is what might have happened.
************
When the Przeworsk http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Przeworsk_ culture
and Zarubintsy
http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Zarubintsy_ culture
cultures made contact, they mixed, and a (more or less forced)
division of labor arose: Slavic (from Zarubintzy) speaking farmers,
Germanic (from Przeworsk) speaking predators/rulers.
****GK: Complete nonsense****
A number of
people, refugees from the Mithridatic war north of the Black sea
arrives, carrying I1a, once carried by only a small group of people.
Somehow a few of them take over.
****GK: As above. Not the tiniest shred of evidence.*****
Woden/Ariovistus/ Harjagist- ,
****GK: Nonsense.****
who had led a major campaign through the
Wetterau valley and had almost completed the conquest of what is now
Southern Germany (south of the river Main) from the Boii and Helvetii,
****GK: We have no idea as to who "led" and who "followed" in this "major campaign". The involvement of Jastorf and Przeworsk elements is clear. But we simply don't have enough facts to verify your hypothesis about the status of Ariovistus in these events . We can't rule out the dominant participation of the Volcae, or that Ariovistus was simply a mercenary for them then as later for the Arverni and Sequani. A man "without a roof"...[Cf. DBG 6.24: quae gens [Volcae] ad hoc tempus [years after the defeat of Ariovistus!] his sedibus sese continet [the most fertile areas of Germania north of the Hercynian forest] summamque habet iustitiae et bellicae laudis opinionem. Nunc quod in eadem inopia, egestate, patientia qua Germani permanent, eodem victu et cultu corporis utuntur.] There is no evidence Ariovistus had much status in Roman (and probably Norican) eyes prior to his big victory at Magetobriga in 61 BCE. BTW it is probable that the same thing happened
to the Volcae in the years subsequent to DBG that almost happened to the Sequani in 58 BCE: their Germanic auxiliaries simply took over, and there was no Caesar to help... (just in passing)****
was hired by the Arverni and Sequani to wage war on the Aedui,
****GK: I will admit that we have no clear indication as to the exact year of this "hire", and will not insist on 72/71 BCE. But the conflict went on for some time, enough for the mercenary warlord to acquire a knowledge of the Gallic language [DBG 1.47). It is, however, also possible that Ariovistus learned "Gallic" while still in Southern Germany as a Volcan mercenary...****
the
arrangement being, as usual, that the farmers in the land where they
were stationed should provide food (and accommodation? ) for them.
Since the Aedui were officially friends of the Romans, Caesar as Roman
consul negotiated with Ariovistus and after getting an agreement that
A. would get out of his employment with the Arverni and Sequani and
stop waging war on the Aedui, A. was pronounced a friend of the Roman
people. However, A. does not leave Sequani territory. The Aedui and
Sequani reach an agreement that this can't be tolerated, so they
together attack A., but are routed.
****GK: Nonsense. You've completely misunderstood Caesar's text. Julius uses expressions like "Gallia omnis" or "tota Gallia" in at least three distinct senses. In 1.1 it includes Belgae and Aquitani (and even Helvetii as "Gauls"!). In 1.30 and 1.31 it is restricted to the non-Belgo/Aquitanian "pars". And in 1.43 and 1.44 it is merely that part of Gaul which is dominated by the Aedui. You mistakenly (as I remember) considered that "omnes Galliae civitates" in 1.44 (Ariovistus' speech) included the Sequani. It did not. As is abundantly obvious from the context. Why would the Sequani continue to hold Aeduan hostages (cf. DBG 1.33 and 1.35) if they, per your fantasy, "reach an agreement" with their historic foes, attack Ariovistus and are then routed? And nowhere are we told that Ariovistus had Sequanian hostages...That's because he only defeated the Aedui alliance in battle.****
A., who suspects Caesar has had a
role to play in this betrayal, now has to find someone trustworthy to
provide provisions, so he demands another third of the Sequani land
****GK: He does that. But he had no battle with his employers. He simply tore up their previous agreement. The Aeduan leader notes that it is only the Aedui who had been defeated (at Magetobriga) (DBG 1.31) The Sequani were "victorious" and still held Aeduan hostages at the time Ariovistus turned on them.****
and sends for the Charudes/Hrvaty/ Croats from the Carpatians,
****GK: Errant nonsense. There were no "Croats from the Carpathians" at that time.****
so that
they might take over evicted farms (this is not a type of work, the
Germani part of A.'s army want to bother with here or elsewhere). The
plan backfires, A. is defeated, and the Charudes/Hrvaty/ Croats are
stuck en route, property-less,
****GK: The Harudes had been in Gaul with Ariovistus for some months prior to the Aeduan appeal to Caesar (DBG 1.31; 1.37), and they participated in the battle with the Romans which annihilated Ariovistus' power (DBG 1.50). ****
most of them probably in Noricum, ruled
by A.'s brother-in-law, king Voccio.
****GK: BTW Ariovistus had become Voccio's b-i-l only after his successes in Gaul (DBG 1.52) This supports the view that he had very little international significance before Magetobriga.****
They have now become a political
embarasment to king V. in his relationship with the Romans and he
decides to get rid of A.'s and his advisors' helmets at Negow,
****GK: Way below Markey's speculation, itself a brittle hypothesis.****
eventually bequeathing his realm to the Romans on his death in 15 BCE,
probably with some kind of understanding that this would avert
reprisals, and the unwanted Charudes/Hrvaty/ Croats begin to migrate
south, becoming the South Slavs.
****GK: Errant nonsense.****