From: tgpedersen
Message: 60436
Date: 2008-09-28
> > >...
> > > On 2008-09-27 17:53, tgpedersen wrote:
> > >
> > > > Zbigniew Gol/a,b: The Origin of the Slavs, pp 366-8
> > >
> > > > ...First of all it should be stated that Germc. *plo:ga-, the
> > > > alleged source of PSlav. plugU, has no convincing etymology
> > > > in that linguistic group, so it is unmotivated from the
> > > > Germanic standpoint. Besides that, it was primarily
> > > > restricted to German.
> > >
> > > I agree that it has no internal Germanic etymology, but I don't
> > > see why it should be regarded as restricted to German,
> > > primarily or otherwise.
> > > <plo:g ~ plo:h> is found in Old English, <plógr> in Old
> > > Icelandic.
> > > The OE word was used mainly as a measure of area in the
> > > preserved texts ('a plough of land'), but there's nothing
> > > German about it.
> >
> > I don't see that either. However Dansk Etymologisk Ordbog seems to
> > agree, for whatever reason:
> > 'plov en; glda. plogh, no., sv. plog, oldnord. plógr m., mnty.
> > plo:ch, oldhty. pfluoh, ty. Pflug; oldeng. plo:h, plo:g
> > 'plovland', eng. plough er lånt fra nord.; jf. longobard.
> > plo:vum, plo:vus.
> >
> > Af omstridt oprindelse. Ordet synes i Skandinavien, hvor det
> > fortrænger ard, at være lånt fra Tyskland. Dersom det er germ.,
> > kan det høre til sa. rod som II. pleje og pløk, Snarere er germ.
> > *plo:Gum, *plo:hum dog måske en betegn. for 'hjulploven' , der
> > skyldes lån fra en mlat. form besl. med nord-ital. ploxemum
> > 'vognkurv' og lat. plaustrum, plo:strum 'fragtvogn'. Fra germ. er
> > ordet lånt østpå: lit. pl:~ugas, oldkirk. plugU. " Jf. pløje.
> >
> >
> > I suspect the Langobard. -v- reflects -w- of the source,
> > 'naturalized' as -G- in Germanic, cf -g- < -G- < -w- (according
> > to some!) in Slav. adj m.n. gen.
--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Jarrette" <anjarrette@...> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, patrick cuadrado <dicoceltique@>
> wrote:
> >
> > what do you think about
> > celtic LEUGA (lieue in french = measure) = Plough Germanic
> > league (n.2)
> > "distance of about three miles," 1387, from L.L. leuga (cf. Fr.
> lieue, Sp. legua, It. lega), said by L. writers to be from Gaulish.
> A vague measure (perhaps originally an hour's hike) never in
> official use in England, where the record of it is more often
> poetic than practical.
> >
> > Pat
>
> FWIW my comments: an Old English <plo:g/plo:h> according to
> Bosworth-Toller was "what a yoke of oxen could plough in a day, a
> plough-land"; the former ("in a day", and often taken as 1 acre)
> could perhaps correspond (?) to a league if measured in a straight
> line, but it was regarded as a measure of area of land, not
> length. A plough-land, as a measure, was what a team of eight oxen
> could plow in a year, and usually taken as 120 acres (= 1 "hide").
>
> I assume you take Celtic *leuga as from an original *pleuga, the
> latter hypothetically the source of Gmc *plo:ga- and Slavic
> *plugU.
> But from the above comments I would say it seems highly unlikely
> that such a Celtic word would be the source of the Germanic and
> Slavic words (and the transfer from a unit of measurement to a tool
> seems even more unlikely to me, regardless of the OE and NE words,
> which seem to be discontinuous (NE <plough> prob. < ON <pl�gr>) --
> it seems probable that the OE word developed its meaning from the
> original "tool" meaning, not the other way around, based on the
> word's meaning in all other languages in which it occurs).
OCR is a good thing
'On the Etymology of Lat. urbs
C. Michiel Driessen University of Leiden
Introduction
Lat. urbs 'city' (CIL I2 5, Naevius+) has no commonly acknowledged
etymology. Its etymology is a classic crux within Indo-European
linguistics. The DELL 754 even went so far as to suggest that it is
probably not Indo-European at all: "Sans doute empruntée. II n'y a pas
en indoeuropéen un nom de la <<ville>>. Le groupe de grec. pólis etc.
signifiait <<citadelle>>." Here I have to disagree. True,
Indo-European had no term for 'city', but the Latin meaning need not
be original; it may well be secondary as is the case with all
Indo-European terms for 'city'. These usually go back to an original
meaning 'place' (like OHG stat), 'enclosure' (like OCS gradU) or
'fortress' (like Gr. pólis).
In this contribution it will be demonstrated that urbs can be properly
etymologised, that it is inherited and that its meaning may well be
secondary.1 First, the semantics of urbs will be discussed. Then, the
phonology of existing etymologies will be treated. Finally, a new
etymology will be presented.
City founding Etrusco: rite and the po:me:rium
A Latin city was founded according to a specific ritual. This ritual
is described in detail by Varro L.L. 5.143 (Fig. I):2
Oppida condebant in Latio Etrusco rite multi, id est iunctis bobus,
tauro et vacca interiore, aratro circumagebant sulcum. ... Terram unde
exculpserant, fossam vocabant et introrsum iactam murum. Post ea qui
fiebat orbis, urbis principium; qui quod erat post murum, postmoerium
dictum. Eo usque auspicia urbana finiuntur. Cippi pomeri stant et
circum Ariciam et circum Romam.
"Many founded cities in Latium according to Etruscan religious
practice, which means that they drew a furrow around (a city) by means
of a span of cattle, a bull (on the outside) and a cow on the inside,
and a plow. The place (scil. the furrow) whence they had plowed up the
earth, they called fossa 'ditch' and the earth thrown inwards they
called mu:rus 'wall'. The circle that came into existence hereafter,
formed the beginning of the city; and which (scil. the circle),
because it was situated behind the mu:rus (scil. the terram introrsum
iactam seen from within the city), was called postmoerium. Hereby
(i.e. the orbis/po:me:rium) the auspicia urba:na were confined.
Boundary stones of a po:me:rium stand around Aricia (a Latin city and
old religious center) and Rome."
Thus, according to Varro the po:me:rium is the sacred furrow (Fig.
I).3 Varro calls this furrow orbis 'circle' instead of boundary vel
sim. The fact that he calls the po:me:rium (the principium urbis) a
circle is clearly due to his etymology of urbs: he believes that urbs
is a blend of orbis 'circle' and urvum 'plow-beam'.'
etc.
So perhaps Andrews misgivings were unfounded.
I was also reminded of the Gefion legend.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gefjun
Of course the loan would be from some not p-less ancestor of Celtic
into Rhetic. Interesting that the Chinese invented heavy iron ploughs
around 100 BCE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plough#Heavy_ploughs
It might have been that invention the Germani and Slavs picked up in
Noricum. Back-formation from *plow-tr- "instrument for measuring"?
Ernout-Meillet:
'*plaumoratum?: sorte de charrue à roues en usage chez les Raeti,
d'après Plin. 18,172. La forme a été diversement corrigée:
plauro-matum, et même ploum (d'après les formes germaniques du type
all. Pflug) Raeti, v. Walde-Hofmann, s.u., et M.L.6609 plo.vum. De
toute façon, mot étranger, non latin: peut-être celtique plutôt que
rétique, dont le second élément fait penser à rota, petorritum, etc.
plaustrum (plo:strum Caton, Varr., plaustra f. Sid.), -i: n. : chariot
à deux roues, sorte de tombereau, grinçant (stri:de:ns p. Vg.,
G.3,536; Ov.Tr, 3,10,59 ).-
Ancien (Cat., Pl. ), usuel, class. Concurrencé par carrus, n'est
demeuré que dans quelques dialectes romans, M.L. 6588; le bret. arm.
pleustra peut provenir du français. D'où plo:stellum; plo:stra:rius,
plaustrilu:cus "qui luit comme le Chariot" (Mart. Cap.);
plo:stror,-a:ris: faire le charretier (b.lat.).
La graphie avec au peut être un "hyperurbanisme", avec influence de
plaudo:. La plupart des termes désignant des véhicules sont empruntés.
Gaulois? Cf. ploxenum ?
...
ploxenum (ploxinum, les mss. ont les deux formes), -i: n. :
sorte de voiture gauloise.
Mot employé par Catulle, 97,6, et glosé par Quintilien, 1,5,8, qui le
donne comme gaulois: Catullus ploxenum circa Padum inuenit, et par
Fest. 260,1.
Torsten
Torsten