From: Jonathan Morris
Message: 60089
Date: 2008-09-17
| Hi Torsten, I'd go with Orel - Vennemann complains of no trace of the original Germanic knibaz, but it's preserved as a cognate in Lith, gnybti, etc. (Orel p. 218). What's the problem with this? Original meaning 'pinching off, shearing off" I have a copy of V's book (can I have my money back?) and was waiting until my time in Purgatory to read it but was prompted by your query to read the entry on knife, et al. It's so transparently bullshit that it hardly deserves comment - but for the sake of due diligence: 1. When you have a word with a restricted meaning in language A and a more general sense in language B, it's usually a good sign that A borrowed the word from B (e.g. boîte, smoking). Hence in this case the direction of flow would be Germanic to Latin. 2. On the one hand, V says the word must have passed into Old French late (p441) because you don't get 'chanif' but 'canif' - (which, btw shows a profound ignorance of Picard, which preserves k, and you'd expect to find canif if the word was coming from the Germanic) then it's borrowed from Old French into Middle English and from there into Old Norse, with "Old English/Old Norse bilingualism in the Danelaw contributing" (p.439) (sic). So it's unlikely to get to England before 1066, years after the end of the Danelaw, but then goes straight into Old Norse and Icelandic. Can anyone take this seriously? 3. Portuguese has canivete - pocket knife - these kinds of words are usually transparent brrowings from French/Gascon/Provençal (e.g. cacete). If it were a Basque borrowing, it would look like one (and there are likely borrowings from Basque like bacalhau, prob. esquerda) - i.e. it would have preserved the b. According to Houaiss, the first recorded use in Port dates from 1364 - canjuete. Much as I dislike agreeing with Trask, I agree with Trask. Btw, since we're on the subject of fanciful etymologies, how about Giovanni 'it's all Akkadian' Semerano (Italy's answer to Vennemann). hinnio - comes from Greek hinnus - ass, which is the horse of the mountains, hence, it should be blindingly obvious that this comes from Akkadian ginnu - mountain. The question is does it come from S's Akkadian-speaking trading empire or from V's Atlantic/Semitic culture, or perhaps Akkadian borrowed it from Basque ginbailandi 'large hat' - after all, mountains can be hat-shaped, well, at least sometimes. Best, Jonathan. --- Em ter, 16/9/08, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> escreveu: De: tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> |