Re: Vandals

> The fact that quidam means "some", not "all" has nothing to do with
> whether I think Snorri should be taken seriously as a source.
>
> ****GK: As I previously said:
>
> All Germanics believe that (a) Marsi, Gambrivii etc.. are genuine
> old names and (b) all believe that they are Germanic names. That is
> the obvious implication of "licentia vetustatis". It is because
> Marsi etc.. are both old and Germanic that "some" reject the
> "Mannus as only son of Tuisco" for the "Tuisco had many sons"
> theory.

They may be old, but they are not Germanic. As Tacitus' informants
tell him, that term is recent. And it didn't replace some earlier term.

> That is what Tacitus is saying. Because all accept that Marsi etc.
> are ancient Germanic names found in the old songs, some proceed to
> revise the "Mannus as only son of Tuisco" theory.

They are ancient, but not Germanic.

> That is the "licentia" allowed them by the "vetustas" of these
> terms. We may also surmise that these names were listed in the
> "Mannus only" view among the descendant tribes.

The 'Mannus only' view was the original one. It did not list the
mentioned four tribes anywhere. The reason you think that is that you
ignore the fact that the concept of Germani as a single people was
recent in Tacitus' time.

> As part of either "proximi Oceano", or "medii", or "ceteri".

Nope.

> So the difference between "some" and "others", according to
> Tacitus, is merely one of genealogical shifts, and has nothing to
> do with late inclusions into Germania, or language changes.

Does too.

> They were all there in the old songs.

E silentio.

> The opinions you mentioned misunderstand the import of "licentia
> vetustatis" (as indeed you do). They suggest that "some" believe
> that "anything goes" with respect to antiquity etc.. I, on the
> contrary, take my stand on Tacitus' position that the "old songs"
> are the Germanics' only source concerning their ancient history.

And presumably that of their neighboring peoples.

> Since they found various names (Vandilii among these) in the old
> songs, they banked on this "vetustas" to provide an alternative
> genealogy for the Germanic tribes from the one developed in the
> Tuisco->Mannus->I,H,I-> scheme. In one of your (rare) lucid moments
> you had to admit that Vandilii etc.. were indeed old names.

Yes, because, Chris' attempts notwithstanding, their names are not
Germanic.

> Nothing else is required to make my point. Your views about
> "Germania Parva" and "Germanis Magna" schools are your own, and
> have nothing whatever to do with Tacitus.*****

The "Germania Magna" came about because at that time all the
neighboring tribes had adopted the Germanic language, and some people
were not about to be reminded that they were once independent. Cf.
similar tendencies on the part of some to deny the original
foreignness of some national minorities.


Torsten