Re: Vandals

--- On Wed, 8/27/08, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> > > > >
> > > > > > > > > They [GK: the Vandals] spoke an East Germanic
> > > > > > > > > language, so they were not LINGUISTICALLY Veneti,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Nope. The only reason their language, of which we
> > > > > > > > know nothing, is classed as East Germanic, is that
> > > > > > > > they lived in the eastern part of the later Germania.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > GK: What is missing in the wikipedia article on the
> > > > > > Vandals is the data from Pliny and Tacitus. According to
> > > > > > the former (NH IV.99) the "Vandili" were a group of
> > > > > > Germanic tribes "quorum pars Burgodiones, Varinnae,
> > > > > > Charini, Gutones". According to the latter (Germania, 2),
> > > > > > the Germani celebrated the "Vandalios" as their own in
> > > > > > "carminibus antiquis", and Tacitus concluded that the
> > > > > > designation (Vandilii/Vandalii) was among the "vera et
> > > > > > antiqua" Germanic "nomina". As we know, Tacitus also made
> > > > > > a clear distinction between Vandals and Venedi.
> > > >
> > > > GK: So that, in the first c. CE, not only were the
> > > > non-Germanic Venedi something different from Vandali (for
> > > > Tacitus no less than Pliny), but the term "Vandali" was
> > > > considered both Germanic and ancient.
> > >
> > > By some.
> > >
> > > GK: By all, if we are to believe Tacitus rather than Torsten.
> >
> > By some. This is what Tacitus says:
> > 'Quidam autem, ut in licentia vetustatis, ... affirmant; eaque
> > vera et antiqua nomina [esse]'
> >
> > "Some, with the freedom of conjecture permitted by antiquity,
> > assert that ..., and that these [Marsi, Gambrivii, Suevi,
> > Vandilii] are genuine old names"
> >
> > GK: All Germanics believe that (a) Marsi, Gambrivii etc.. are
> > genuine old names
>
> I don't know why you keep repeating that.
>
> GK: Because I am relying on Tacitus rathen than on Torsten's
> Snorrist ideology.

No you're not. You're so blinded by Torsten's insubordination that you
can't even read.

****GK: I certainly wish I didn't have to read your ceaseless Snorrist tom-tom shouts. But I see now that you can't really help it. The best thing is to stop waving the red flag of science in your face.****

> > some proceed to revise the "Mannus as only son of Tuisco" theory.
> > That is the "licentia" allowed them by the "vetustas" of these
> > terms.

> > We may also surmise that these names were listed in the "Mannus
> > only" view among the descendant tribes. As part of either
> > "proximi Oceano", or "medii", or "ceteri".

Surmise to your heart's content. I can't follow you.

****GK: Of course you can't. You just can't. It's organically impossible. It would be going against the ultimate truth which no one knew until Snorri discovered it in the thirteenth century.****

> Place names etc which do not make sense in the language of those
> who live there are perceived by them as 'old', in contrast to those
> in their own language which are made up of recognizable elements.
>
> GK: Like "Tuisco" and "Mannus"? (:=)))

Yes. Mannus, with the geminate, can't be native Germanic.

****GK: I can't even begin to count the number of times you turn on a dime to contradict yourself. The Vandilii as Germanics theory is not "Germania Parva" and now, again, neither is the "Mannus" theory, which earlier was...****

> Cf. the end of Snorri's prologue,
>
> GK: Of course. "Mais puisque je vous disais que je n'en etais
> pas,...de Port Royal" (cf. Pascal)

I can't find that quote. What's the context?

****GK: That Pascal assured his readers he was no Jansenist, though he was, in spades.****

> It is obvious to Snorri and everyone else who used their heads at
> his time
>
> GK: Yawn.... Still flogging that horse... Hopeless, totally and
> irredemiably.

Flogging what horse? I think I've used that Snorri quote once before.

****GK: You're totally immersed in Snorrism, which is your alpha and omega.****

> that the Celtic etc district and place names in England are not
> from the language family he saw in the corresponding place names in
> Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany and partly England. Similarly, the
> fact that some Germani in Tacitus' time saw the names of the Marsi,
> Gambrivii, Suevi, Vandilii as genuine old names does not mean that
> they are genuine old Germanic names,
>
> GK: Tacitus and the Germans of 98 CE thought they were.

Some of them did. Those of that were as smart as Snorri who could see
that these names were not Germanic.

> Which is all that matters in the context we are discussing.

Too bad you're wrong then.

****GK: Indeed I am. I don't belong to your Snorrist ideological church.****

.

> Well, another thing the Germans of Tacitus' time certainly didn't
> know is that their language came to them from the Aesirs of Asgard.
> Their old songs (their only source of ancient history) didn't tell
> them that, nor any more recent recollections [like from the
> mid-first c. BCE(:=))).] Neither Tacitus nor the Germans of his
> time (including both "some" and "others") were Snorrists (:=)))
> tsk..tsk...* ***

Nothing in the old songs could prepare them for the fact that the
particular dialect used by the elite of Ariovistus' army would spread
to all of Germania and beyond.

****GK: Did they translate the old songs into that dialect? (:=))))****