Re: Vandals

--- On Mon, 8/25/08, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> >
> > > > > > They [GK: the Vandals] spoke an East Germanic language,
> > > > > > so they were not LINGUISTICALLY Veneti,
> > > > >
> > > > > Nope. The only reason their language, of which we know
> > > > > nothing, is classed as East Germanic, is that they lived in
> > > > > the eastern part of the later Germania.
> > >
> > > GK: What is missing in the wikipedia article on the Vandals is
> > the data from Pliny and Tacitus. According to the former
> > (NH IV.99) the "Vandili" were a group of Germanic tribes "quorum
> > pars Burgodiones, Varinnae, Charini, Gutones". According to the
> > latter (Germania, 2), the Germani celebrated the "Vandalios" as
> > their own in "carminibus antiquis", and Tacitus concluded that
> > the designation (Vandilii/Vandalii) was among the "vera et
> > antiqua" Germanic "nomina". As we know, Tacitus also made a clear
> > distinction between Vandals and Venedi.
>
> GK: So that, in the first c. CE, not only were the non-Germanic

Venedi something different from Vandali (for Tacitus no less than
Pliny), but the term "Vandali" was considered both Germanic and
ancient.

By some.

*****GK: By all, if we are to believe Tacitus rather than Torsten.*****

> > That's not quite accurate.
> >
> > http://www.sacred- texts.com/ cla/tac/g01000. htm
> >
> > 'Celebrant carminibus antiquis (quod unum apud illos memoriae et
> > annalium genus est) Tuisconem deum terra editum, et filium Mannum,
> > originem gentis conditoresque. Manno tres filios assignant, e
> > quorum nominibus proximi Oceano Ingaevones, medii Hermiones,
> > ceteri Istaevones vocentur. Quidam autem, ut in licentia
> > vetustatis, plures deo ortos pluresque gentis appellationes,
> > Marsos, Gambrivios, Suevos, Vandalios, affirmant; eaque vera et
> > antiqua nomina. Ceterum Germaniae vocabulum recens et nuper
> > additum; quoniam, qui primi Rhenum transgressi Gallos expulerint,
> > ac nunc Tungri, tunc Germani vocati sint: ita nationis nomen, non
> > gentis evaluisse paulatim, ut omnes primum a victore ob metum,
> > mox a se ipsis invento nomine Germani vocarentur.'
>
> > In other words, there are two schools of thought among the
> > Germani. According to one, the 'Marsi, Gambrivii, Suevi,
> > Vandilii' are not part of the Germani,
>
> >
> > GK: Typical Torsten non-sequitur. They would in fact, according
> to one view, be listed among descendants of the three sons of
> Mannus("the coast tribes" + "those of the interior" + "the rest"):
> for instance, Pliny accessed a source where the Suevi were
> Hermiones...
>
> Nope. Argumentum e nihilo. The fact that Pliny finds someone who
> thinks the Suevi were Hermiones does not mean that everybody of the
> Germania Parva school thinks that.


>
> GK: The "Germania Parva" and "Germania Magna" schools are
> figments of Torsten's Snorrist imagination. Tacitus neither says
> nor implies any such thing. What he is saying is that for some, all
> the Germani of his time are descended from the sons of Mannus,
> while for others they are not, since Tuisco allegedly had "other
> sons" than Mannus...

And for convenience. the ideas of 'some' I called the "Germania Parva"
school, and the ideas of 'others' I called the "Germania Magna"
school, which I patiently explained,

****GK: You only explained your isdeological prejudices, with which we are all familiar. These prejudices run counter to Tacitus' witness, as I am patiently attempting to explain to you.****

.

> > GK: The dispute among these views is not about whether tribe or
> > complex of tribes A,B, or C is or is not "Germanic", but whether
> > it descends or does not descend directly from the god...
>
> Same thing. Whichever tribe descends from Tuisco is Germanic.
> Whichever tribe doesn't, isn't.
>
> GK: The point is that all tribes descend from Tuisco,

Torsten.(:=) )) "plures deo ortos" in Tacitus' text.

Nope. It's like this:

****GK: Who cares about what Tacitus says? Torsten has the truth. "It's like this" (:=)))........

All tribes have eponymous founders.

****GK: Right.****

'Some'
("Germania Parva" adherents in the terminology I chose)) think the
founding heroes of the Marsi, Gambrivii, Suevi, Vandalii are not sons
of Tuisco (or Mannus?) ie. are not Germani,

****GK: Wrong. "Some" think the founding heroes of the Marsi, Gambrivii, Suevi, Vandalii are sons (or grandsons?) of Tuisco (who had other sons besides Mannus), rather than his great grandsons via the three sons of Mannus. It's a simple disagreement about genealogy. They are all Germani (according to the new terminology), and recognize themselves as such.****