Re: Vandals

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

>
> --- On Mon, 8/25/08, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@... s.com, george knysh <gknysh@> wrote:

> > --- On Sun, 8/24/08, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > They [GK: the Vandals] spoke an East Germanic language,
> > > > > > so they were not LINGUISTICALLY Veneti,
> > > > >
> > > > > Nope. The only reason their language, of which we know
> > > > > nothing, is classed as East Germanic, is that they lived in
> > > > > the eastern part of the later Germania.
> > >
> > > GK: What is missing in the wikipedia article on the Vandals is
> > the data from Pliny and Tacitus. According to the former
> > (NH IV.99) the "Vandili" were a group of Germanic tribes "quorum
> > pars Burgodiones, Varinnae, Charini, Gutones". According to the
> > latter (Germania, 2), the Germani celebrated the "Vandalios" as
> > their own in "carminibus antiquis", and Tacitus concluded that
> > the designation (Vandilii/Vandalii) was among the "vera et
> > antiqua" Germanic "nomina". As we know, Tacitus also made a clear
> > distinction between Vandals and Venedi.
>
> ****GK: So that, in the first c. CE, not only were the non-Germanic

Venedi something different from Vandali (for Tacitus no less than
Pliny), but the term "Vandali" was considered both Germanic and
ancient.****

By some.

> > That's not quite accurate.
> >
> > http://www.sacred- texts.com/ cla/tac/g01000. htm
> >
> > 'Celebrant carminibus antiquis (quod unum apud illos memoriae et
> > annalium genus est) Tuisconem deum terra editum, et filium Mannum,
> > originem gentis conditoresque. Manno tres filios assignant, e
> > quorum nominibus proximi Oceano Ingaevones, medii Hermiones,
> > ceteri Istaevones vocentur. Quidam autem, ut in licentia
> > vetustatis, plures deo ortos pluresque gentis appellationes,
> > Marsos, Gambrivios, Suevos, Vandalios, affirmant; eaque vera et
> > antiqua nomina. Ceterum Germaniae vocabulum recens et nuper
> > additum; quoniam, qui primi Rhenum transgressi Gallos expulerint,
> > ac nunc Tungri, tunc Germani vocati sint: ita nationis nomen, non
> > gentis evaluisse paulatim, ut omnes primum a victore ob metum,
> > mox a se ipsis invento nomine Germani vocarentur.'
>
> > In other words, there are two schools of thought among the
> > Germani. According to one, the 'Marsi, Gambrivii, Suevi,
> > Vandilii' are not part of the Germani,
>
> >
> > GK: Typical Torsten non-sequitur. They would in fact, according
> to one view, be listed among descendants of the three sons of
> Mannus("the coast tribes" + "those of the interior" + "the rest"):
> for instance, Pliny accessed a source where the Suevi were
> Hermiones...
>
> Nope. Argumentum e nihilo. The fact that Pliny finds someone who
> thinks the Suevi were Hermiones does not mean that everybody of the
> Germania Parva school thinks that.
>
> *****GK: The "Germania Parva" and "Germania Magna" schools are
> figments of Torsten's Snorrist imagination. Tacitus neither says
> nor implies any such thing. What he is saying is that for some, all
> the Germani of his time are descended from the sons of Mannus,
> while for others they are not, since Tuisco allegedly had "other
> sons" than Mannus...

And for convenience. the ideas of 'some' I called the "Germania Parva"
school, and the ideas of 'others' I called the "Germania Magna"
school, which I patiently explained, so all that remains of your your
attempt to befuddle all is the designation of me as a Snorrist, to
which word you for some reason have taken a liking, you Nestorist.

> > GK: The dispute among these views is not about whether tribe or
> > complex of tribes A,B, or C is or is not "Germanic", but whether
> > it descends or does not descend directly from the god...
>
> Same thing. Whichever tribe descends from Tuisco is Germanic.
> Whichever tribe doesn't, isn't.
>
> ****GK: The point is that all tribes descend from Tuisco,

Torsten.(:=))) "plures deo ortos" in Tacitus' text.****

Nope. It's like this: All tribes have eponymous founders. 'Some'
("Germania Parva" adherents in the terminology I chose)) think the
founding heroes of the Marsi, Gambrivii, Suevi, Vandalii are not sons
of Tuisco (or Mannus?) ie. are not Germani, while 'others' ("Germania
Magna" adherents) think they are.


Torsten